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	<title>Comments on: SLC Council - No discrimation here</title>
	<atom:link href="http://mormonsformarriage.com/?feed=rss2&#038;p=143" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://mormonsformarriage.com/?p=143</link>
	<description>Voicing our support for same-sex marriage, and our respectful opposition to California’s Proposition 8</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 10 Sep 2010 22:04:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: sheryl</title>
		<link>http://mormonsformarriage.com/?p=143&cpage=1#comment-5782</link>
		<dc:creator>sheryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 07:05:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonsformarriage.com/?p=143#comment-5782</guid>
		<description>Good points, Fiona64.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good points, Fiona64.</p>
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		<title>By: fiona64</title>
		<link>http://mormonsformarriage.com/?p=143&cpage=1#comment-5781</link>
		<dc:creator>fiona64</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 23:08:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonsformarriage.com/?p=143#comment-5781</guid>
		<description>From CowboyII's link:

For this is not something that many other churches, including my own, have been able or prepared to do. I wish, of course, that Michael Otterson, who is also a decent and sincere man, had not framed the position in such a defensive way:

    "The church supports these ordinances because they are fair and reasonable and do not do violence to the institution of marriage."

That's a lamentably inflammatory way to describe gay citizens' genuine attempt to seek equality in civil marriage - which we certainly don't see as "violence" in any way at all. But the extremity of that quote may well have been necessary to avoid a backlash among conservative Mormons. And I would much rather focus on the positive gesture than the back-handed swipe that accompanied it.
-----

I do think that the statement is inflammatory.  I suppose its purpose might be interpreted as the writer does here (that it was necessary to avoid backlash).  

Again, I agree that it is important that the LDS Church supported this legislation -- because, I am sorry to say, I don't think that Utah (and SLC in particular) has very effective separation of church and state.  :-/  

I fail to understand how civil marriage does any "violence" to the institution of marriage, because the LDS church will no more be forced to marry gay men or lesbians or any non-member than it does now.  There was no real need that I can see for making that statement in those words.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From CowboyII&#8217;s link:</p>
<p>For this is not something that many other churches, including my own, have been able or prepared to do. I wish, of course, that Michael Otterson, who is also a decent and sincere man, had not framed the position in such a defensive way:</p>
<p>    &#8220;The church supports these ordinances because they are fair and reasonable and do not do violence to the institution of marriage.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a lamentably inflammatory way to describe gay citizens&#8217; genuine attempt to seek equality in civil marriage - which we certainly don&#8217;t see as &#8220;violence&#8221; in any way at all. But the extremity of that quote may well have been necessary to avoid a backlash among conservative Mormons. And I would much rather focus on the positive gesture than the back-handed swipe that accompanied it.<br />
&#8212;&#8211;</p>
<p>I do think that the statement is inflammatory.  I suppose its purpose might be interpreted as the writer does here (that it was necessary to avoid backlash).  </p>
<p>Again, I agree that it is important that the LDS Church supported this legislation &#8212; because, I am sorry to say, I don&#8217;t think that Utah (and SLC in particular) has very effective separation of church and state.  :-/  </p>
<p>I fail to understand how civil marriage does any &#8220;violence&#8221; to the institution of marriage, because the LDS church will no more be forced to marry gay men or lesbians or any non-member than it does now.  There was no real need that I can see for making that statement in those words.</p>
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		<title>By: cowboyII</title>
		<link>http://mormonsformarriage.com/?p=143&cpage=1#comment-5778</link>
		<dc:creator>cowboyII</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Nov 2009 15:46:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonsformarriage.com/?p=143#comment-5778</guid>
		<description>Interesting comment by Andrew Sullivan:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/11/the-mormon-move.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting comment by Andrew Sullivan:</p>
<p><a href="http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/11/the-mormon-move.html" onclick="javascript:pageTracker._trackPageview('/andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com');" rel="nofollow">http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/11/the-mormon-move.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: Sheryl</title>
		<link>http://mormonsformarriage.com/?p=143&cpage=1#comment-5770</link>
		<dc:creator>Sheryl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Nov 2009 02:45:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonsformarriage.com/?p=143#comment-5770</guid>
		<description>Typical Libra, I can see both sides to the statement about giving equality to the gay community does not do violence to the institution of marriage.

It certainly is a step in the right direction to pass laws against discriminating on the basis of one's sexual orientation.  And to admit that passing those laws does not threaten marriage.  However, I also think that statement in someway states that this equality will not be extended to the marriage laws.

And, let me add, that the church was too much emphasized for a political issue.  It implies that the church runs the city.  While SLC may or may not be predominantly LDS, there are other religions with large populations in SLC.

Just my take,

Sheryl</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Typical Libra, I can see both sides to the statement about giving equality to the gay community does not do violence to the institution of marriage.</p>
<p>It certainly is a step in the right direction to pass laws against discriminating on the basis of one&#8217;s sexual orientation.  And to admit that passing those laws does not threaten marriage.  However, I also think that statement in someway states that this equality will not be extended to the marriage laws.</p>
<p>And, let me add, that the church was too much emphasized for a political issue.  It implies that the church runs the city.  While SLC may or may not be predominantly LDS, there are other religions with large populations in SLC.</p>
<p>Just my take,</p>
<p>Sheryl</p>
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		<title>By: Sheri</title>
		<link>http://mormonsformarriage.com/?p=143&cpage=1#comment-5769</link>
		<dc:creator>Sheri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Nov 2009 23:20:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonsformarriage.com/?p=143#comment-5769</guid>
		<description>Fiona and Dave,
I guess I just read that statement wrong.  I thought they were admitting that giving equality to the gay community does NOT do violence to the institution of marriage; implying to me that they had changed their minds and no longer see equality as a threat to marriage?  Am I reading it wrong?
Sheri</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fiona and Dave,<br />
I guess I just read that statement wrong.  I thought they were admitting that giving equality to the gay community does NOT do violence to the institution of marriage; implying to me that they had changed their minds and no longer see equality as a threat to marriage?  Am I reading it wrong?<br />
Sheri</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Hoen</title>
		<link>http://mormonsformarriage.com/?p=143&cpage=1#comment-5742</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Hoen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 23:05:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonsformarriage.com/?p=143#comment-5742</guid>
		<description>Yes, this is a good step in the right direction, but I have to agree with Fiona here.  It is offensive to imply that same-sex marriage somehow causes violence.  And you know darn well they intentionally conjured up this phrase for that purpose.  They could have left it out, but no, they just couldn't leave it alone.  To me it indicates that this extraordinary step was made possible because of all the heat they've been getting.  But it is a good baby step forward.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, this is a good step in the right direction, but I have to agree with Fiona here.  It is offensive to imply that same-sex marriage somehow causes violence.  And you know darn well they intentionally conjured up this phrase for that purpose.  They could have left it out, but no, they just couldn&#8217;t leave it alone.  To me it indicates that this extraordinary step was made possible because of all the heat they&#8217;ve been getting.  But it is a good baby step forward.</p>
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		<title>By: Sheri</title>
		<link>http://mormonsformarriage.com/?p=143&cpage=1#comment-5741</link>
		<dc:creator>Sheri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 20:25:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonsformarriage.com/?p=143#comment-5741</guid>
		<description>Hi Fiona,  If I were to pick out every policy of the church that I find offensive I could write another book, but the truth is, change, regardless of how slow it comes, must happen with the first step.  I think this is a first step in the right direction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Fiona,  If I were to pick out every policy of the church that I find offensive I could write another book, but the truth is, change, regardless of how slow it comes, must happen with the first step.  I think this is a first step in the right direction.</p>
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		<title>By: Laura</title>
		<link>http://mormonsformarriage.com/?p=143&cpage=1#comment-5740</link>
		<dc:creator>Laura</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 06:21:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonsformarriage.com/?p=143#comment-5740</guid>
		<description>LDS Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland &lt;a href="http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13766464?source=rss" rel="nofollow"&gt;told the Salt Lake Tribune&lt;/a&gt; that "Anything good is shareable," indicating that other communities (perhaps even the state of Utah?) could certainly look to Salt Lake City's new non-discrimination ordinances - both the process leading up to the agreement and the ordinances themselves - as exemplary.

Conservatives who opposed the ordinances say in the same article that, of course the church supports the ordinances - it is exempted from complying with them, but the "rest of us" are being discriminated against because of our religious beliefs.

Neither the church nor any of its wholly owned subsidiaries (including its universities, schools and at least portions of the new City Creek condo/shopping complex) are required to comply with the nondiscrimination ordinances.

Hopefully the Church will keep to a minimum the places where it might deny housing or employment to members of the GLBT community and seek to put its actions where its words are and open more doors than it closes and nurturing the relationships that are being made between two disparate communities.

Certainly there is a place for restricting student housing on a religious college campus, or employment within the Church Office Building, but there appears to be less reason to restrict housing or employment in the larger community represented by places like City Creek Center or Deseret Book.  Particularly when church policy is to accept fully and completely celibate GLB members wherever they may be.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LDS Apostle Jeffrey R. Holland <a href="http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_13766464?source=rss" onclick="javascript:pageTracker._trackPageview('/www.sltrib.com');" rel="nofollow">told the Salt Lake Tribune</a> that &#8220;Anything good is shareable,&#8221; indicating that other communities (perhaps even the state of Utah?) could certainly look to Salt Lake City&#8217;s new non-discrimination ordinances - both the process leading up to the agreement and the ordinances themselves - as exemplary.</p>
<p>Conservatives who opposed the ordinances say in the same article that, of course the church supports the ordinances - it is exempted from complying with them, but the &#8220;rest of us&#8221; are being discriminated against because of our religious beliefs.</p>
<p>Neither the church nor any of its wholly owned subsidiaries (including its universities, schools and at least portions of the new City Creek condo/shopping complex) are required to comply with the nondiscrimination ordinances.</p>
<p>Hopefully the Church will keep to a minimum the places where it might deny housing or employment to members of the GLBT community and seek to put its actions where its words are and open more doors than it closes and nurturing the relationships that are being made between two disparate communities.</p>
<p>Certainly there is a place for restricting student housing on a religious college campus, or employment within the Church Office Building, but there appears to be less reason to restrict housing or employment in the larger community represented by places like City Creek Center or Deseret Book.  Particularly when church policy is to accept fully and completely celibate GLB members wherever they may be.</p>
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		<title>By: Fiona64</title>
		<link>http://mormonsformarriage.com/?p=143&cpage=1#comment-5738</link>
		<dc:creator>Fiona64</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 23:08:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonsformarriage.com/?p=143#comment-5738</guid>
		<description>Hi, Sheri.  I don't deny for one second the importance of the move.  I apologize that I was not able to make that clear.  

I am tremendously offended at the idea that equality under CIVIL law somehow "does violence to the institution of marriage."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, Sheri.  I don&#8217;t deny for one second the importance of the move.  I apologize that I was not able to make that clear.  </p>
<p>I am tremendously offended at the idea that equality under CIVIL law somehow &#8220;does violence to the institution of marriage.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Sheri</title>
		<link>http://mormonsformarriage.com/?p=143&cpage=1#comment-5737</link>
		<dc:creator>Sheri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:59:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://mormonsformarriage.com/?p=143#comment-5737</guid>
		<description>Fiona, although it's easy for some to take that stance (I've been having the same discussion with a few people of Facebook) it's really important that we all honor this step forward regardless of the motive.  Having my roots in Mormonism and my family still firmly planted there, I know this move is from the purest place of their heart.  It may have been the backlash that got them to this point, but no matter, they are here, and it's a VERY good thing.  If people push back against them now, how will progress ever be made?  Now is the greatest test of whether we who are fighting for equality can pracitce the tolerance that we preach.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fiona, although it&#8217;s easy for some to take that stance (I&#8217;ve been having the same discussion with a few people of Facebook) it&#8217;s really important that we all honor this step forward regardless of the motive.  Having my roots in Mormonism and my family still firmly planted there, I know this move is from the purest place of their heart.  It may have been the backlash that got them to this point, but no matter, they are here, and it&#8217;s a VERY good thing.  If people push back against them now, how will progress ever be made?  Now is the greatest test of whether we who are fighting for equality can pracitce the tolerance that we preach.</p>
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