Apr.06.2010
10:05 pm
by Guest
An Unexpected Path
Joshua is an active Latter-day Saint in the San Francisco Bay Area. In 2009, he was sealed to his spouse in the Oakland temple and currently serves in his ward’s Elder’s Quorum Presidency. In 2007, he came out as a gay Mormon. He discusses the challenges of a mixed-orientation marriage in light of the fight for gay rights and suggests ways to support both same-sex and mixed-orientation couples.
Life has a way of happening. Regardless of what you might plan for your life, there are always unexpected turns. Often, these turns are not what you would have chosen for yourself. Notwithstanding, I have learned that God has a much greater plan for me than I could ever imagine. If I only be patient and put my trust in God, He will direct my path and make more of my life than I could have done on my own.
One of the first unexpected turns was becoming an openly gay Mormon, fully dedicated to serving the Lord and following his prophets. I came out to my ward in a sacrament meeting talk over the pulpit. I had no role model to follow. For much of my life I had thought that gay people didn’t belong in the church. I pretended to be straight for many years, because that was what I thought God wanted me to do. Living the gospel brought a peace into my life, and I didn’t want to give that up, even if it meant pretending to be something that I wasn’t. But as I prayed and searched for answers, I found that God didn’t want me to lie. He wanted me to be true to myself and authentic. I didn’t know if it would work, but I would try hard to hold strong to the Church and its teachings on homosexuality and still be open and honest about my feelings. I felt like a living paradox, yet at the same time, I felt more authentic than I ever had in my life. I felt people really knew me and were friends with me, instead of just my facade.
It was great, but I soon learned that wasn’t all that God had in store for me. While authenticity brought me great happiness and contentment, I found there was still something missing. I yearned for companionship. I let myself stray from the path. I allowed myself to flirt with other men and even become romantically involved. For the first time, I felt alive. Just being with another man sent my heart racing. I felt a bond that I had never felt before; a bond that I had tried for years to create with women and had failed. He was there with me, and he understood me. I knew I was meant to love and was meant to be loved.
The passion was addicting, but I realized that I no longer felt the peace that I so treasured. I began to sink into discouragement. I had discovered a feeling that I had longed for ever since I could remember, and didn’t want to give it up. I had tried with so many women, and failed miserably. Everything I had heard seemed to suggest that I would never be happy with a woman. At the time, California had just legalized same-sex marriage, on the grounds that gay people would never be able to form a marriage with the person they would chose as a lifetime partner. People were declaring that gay people could not create a fulfilling and faithful marriage under the old law. Did I really think I was an exception? Did I really think I knew more than the California Supreme Court? I came to the conclusion that I had to choose between the passion I had found, and the peace that I always knew. I decided that I would follow the church, even if it meant I would be celibate.
But again, God had something greater in store for me.
That is when I met the love of my life. She and I got along great and started dating right away. She was an amazing person who I looked up to in several ways. I told her of my attractions to men, and she was very supportive. She never made me do anything I wasn’t comfortable with. Slowly, I started being comfortable with more and more intimacy. While intimacy was forced, I found I started to enjoy it. What was more striking, is that I still felt at peace. I had never associated intimacy with peace before. I knew it wasn’t supposed to feel empty, like my relationships with men had felt, but I didn’t expect intimacy to be spiritual.
The more I got to know this woman, the more I fell in love with her, and the stronger the peace became. This continued until the peace was overwhelming. I felt that I should pray and ask God about marriage. I did not want to. I wasn’t ready. It was too soon. All of the doubts about mixed-orientation marriages flooded my mind. What girl would want to marry me? I wrestled with God. I couldn’t ask the question. Instead I asked if I should proceed as if I were to marry her. As soon as I brought myself to ask, I felt a powerful confirmation that I was supposed to follow this path. It was one of the most spiritual experiences of my life. From there it seemed like all barriers fell away. Intimacy no longer was forced. Instead, I had a craving. I found myself wanting more than I would allow myself to have before marriage. My love and my bond with her eclipsed anything I had ever felt with a man. I trusted her, and felt I could really give myself to her completely. I was now ready to pray about marriage, and it felt good. We have been married for a year now, and it has been bliss. I have never been so happy in my whole entire life.
Not to say that everything has been perfect. I fear that in my brevity I have oversimplified my story. There have been many struggles and heartaches, but in the end I look at the miracle that God did in my life and I am overwhelmed with gratitude. For the first time, my life makes sense. What I had considered trials and tribulations, I now realize are blessings from a gracious Heavenly Father who loves me. In helping me deal with my same-sex attractions, my wife has gone with me deep into my soul. Instead of breaking apart our marriage, our challenges and strife have strengthened our relationship. It has created a bond that few people have.
I realize that this is not everyone’s experience. I only got here because God put me here, and I realize that for different people, God has different paths. That is why we must never judge others. Who knows what miracle God has in store for them? Our job is to love and support them. We are here to learn the difference from good and bad, and chose the good. How can we learn the difference if someone chooses for us? Many people tried to choose for me. Some were convinced I needed to marry a woman in order to obtain salvation. Others tried to tell me that for a faithful gay Mormon, the only option was celibacy. Others told me that in order to find fulfillment and be true to myself, I needed to be in a relationship with a man. Only God knows his will for us. We worship God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and we need to allow other people the same privilege.
Even though I had a strong impression that I needed to marry my wife, it was still difficult for me because of everything people had told me about mixed-orientation marriages. Everyone should have a fair shot at making their marriage work. When people in mixed-orientation marriages hear things like, “gay people can’t get married,” or “you wouldn’t want your daughter to marry someone like that”, it is easy for them to question their own worth and validity of their marriage. There is a challenge associated with mixed-orientation marriages, but I think that should give us more reason to buoy people up, rather than tear them down.
Just as I do not want anyone to judge me for entering into my marriage, I do not think anyone should be judged for the relationship they choose to enter. Before I met my wife, I had never felt as alive as I did as when I was with another man. It was hard to leave that behind, even knowing the peace I found in the gospel of Christ. How can I expect those who do not know that peace to turn down such a wonderful experience, when I myself had such a hard time? Society teaches that same-sex relationships are the only opportunity for gay people to be true to themselves and find fulfillment. While I disagree with society and think that teaching is harmful, many gay people know no other option. If they know no other option, can we really expect them to make another choice? I am thankful the church has given me another option, but many do not know the love that is found in the Mormon Church. While I fully supported Prop 8, at the same time I think there are many other ways we can show our love and support to same-sex couples. There are over 1100 federal rights and benefits that are being denied Californian same-sex couples that the Church does not oppose. Why focus on the areas of disagreement?
I think we need to do all we can to increase the agency of those around us. We should fight so that both mixed-orientation and same-sex couples have all of the rights and privileges they need to protect, support, and openly love their families. No one should be forced into the closet. There are wonderful people in same-sex relationships and there are wonderful people in mixed-orientation relationships. I fully believe people from both types of relationships will inherit the Celestial Kingdom.
Joseph Smith once said “If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No, I will lift them up and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way.” I feel many Mormons do not lift up same-sex couples, but bear them down along with the organizations that support them. Likewise, I do not feel many in the gay community lift mixed-orientation couples up, but I have felt many bear us down along with the organizations that support us.
If we show hate, are we really obeying the commandments of God? Aren’t the two greatest commandments love thy God and love thy neighbor? Don’t all the commandments hang off of these two? If it isn’t based in love, it isn’t a commandment of God. As Christ said, that is the way he will recognize his disciples, if we have love one towards another We need to bear one another’s burdens, not to add to other’s burdens. We need to mourn with those who mourn, not cause them to mourn. Unless we can learn to love as Christ loved, we will be the ones who will not enter into the Celestial Kingdom.
What happened to me is nothing short of a miracle. At one time, my same-sex attractions, my faith in God, and my desire for a family seemed to be at odds with one another. Now, everything has come together in a beautiful masterpiece. I am thankful for those who put their faith in me, who told me I could when the rest of the world told me I couldn’t. Most importantly I thank God who has given me my greatest blessing here on Earth, my wife. I have a testimony that if we put our faith in God, He will direct our paths. He will make more of our life than we could ever dream possible. We do not know anyone else’s path. Of us, it is only required to love God and love our neighbor. Hate is not in the program.
Filed in Help & Support - LDS, gay, homosexuality, mormons |
Joshua asked: There are over 1100 federal rights and benefits that are being denied Californian same-sex couples that the Church does not oppose. Why focus on the areas of disagreement?
Because we are talking about civil law, not Church doctrine. Why should what the Church says dictate civil law for those who are not its members?
Thank you for acknowledging that same-sex couples are denied the benefits associated with marriage — because that’s the bottom line. Church doctrine is irrelevant to discussions of civil law, and the Church itself says that it is apolitical (I think they are being disingenuous with this, all things considered, but that’s what they say).
The 14th Amendment of the US Constitution says that all people have the right to equal treatment and protection under the law. It doesn’t say anything about “unless they are gay” or “unless they are the same religion” or “so long as they are willing to be with a person of the opposite sex.”
I am, as I have said many times, glad that you are happy. There is not enough happiness in this world for me to care who loves whom. But I cannot and will not sit quietly and let religious prejudices of *any* ilk interfere in civil law.
Best,
Fiona
Joshua, thanks for sharing your story, it is courageous of you to open yourself in this way, in light of the present controversy regarding these issues.
Would you be willing to enter deeper conversation’s more intimately, hopefully both you and your wife, in order to shed more light on this topic.
As you say “Not to say that everything has been perfect. I fear that in my brevity I have oversimplified my story.” Basically what I understand from your sharing is that this is a miracle, and you give the credit to God.
During this experience, you also note that peace comes from following gospel, and of course this is different than the experience one gets from adhereing to old biblical laws. Your goal is peace and I honor that. You give God the credit for this peace, and if it is for real, your wife would also experience this same peace.
Has this personal experience been the result only of turning yourself over to God, or have you had any form of counselling to assist you, and your wife. It would be very helpfull to know this, and also considering that your personal experience has changed drastically a few times by God, are you open to the possiblity that he may again, have a change of direction for you? (are you continuing to allow God to direct your life, wherever that takes you, even if it meant divorce)
Are you familiar with any other people in a similar situation to yourself, for example, by opening yourself this way, have your recieved feedback from any others who share your experience. This would be a valuable contribution to the controversy, to help others understand this experience of peace you enjoy
Regards to you and your wife (I would love to hear her story)
Bob
Bob,
I am one of those other people who share a situation similar to Joshua’s. I hope it’s okay if I answer a few of the questions you posed to Joshua. My wife doesn’t get to the computer much, but I have heard her express to other women many times how much joy and peace she finds in our marriage. As for myself, I am nothing short of happy. I truly believe that following the principles of the Gospel is the surest way to happiness. This wasn’t always the case. I got married thinking that I was going to just “outgrow” my same-sex attraction. A few months later, I realized that it wasn’t going to go away and talked with my wife. We sought counsel from professional therapists as well as a loving and understanding bishop. Counseling was invaluable in learning how to be happy independent of any attractions I was feeling. But it wasn’t enough on it’s own. I still got to the point where I felt divorce was the only option. I am so grateful that I finally yielded my heart to God. I know that it is only through the power of the atonement of my Savior Jesus Christ that my heart was softened. I came to understand God’s plan for me. I came to taste of his goodness and love. That has made all the difference in the world. For myself, I take seriously the covenants that I made to my wife. I promised to stay with her, and that promise has allowed me to grow to an extent that I never would have otherwise. I highly recommend Elder Bruce C. Hafen’s book, “Covenant Hearts.” He speaks of the value of a covenant marriage and what it means to keep those covenants, to individuals as well as societies.
I find it curious that the husbands in these “mixed marriages” are more than willing to testify to how happy their wives are, but we never hear from the wives themselves. :-/
I guess I would prefer to hear it from the horse’s mouth.
Wow, what a bag of mixed feelings between this one and the previous one of him coming out to the church.
First off, I cried when I read him coming out. I have had many of the same “Revelations” in my life from the bottom of my heart.
Now, the second post (this one) just kills me.
Of course I am happy that you found happiness and peace, in this I think it is a miracle for you and you should embrace it. However, your words describing the emptiness of your gay relationships, yet saying that the passion you felt in your first post was something you had never experienced before.
You are sending mixed messages, almost in complacency to the church’s current policy on same-sex relationships. Yet at the same time calling for people to not judge.
Then you get a reply from Bob, wanting to solidify the concept that your “Conversion” was successful, to propagate the false truth that through God you are healed of homosexuality.
Same-sex marriages should be supported by the church, and they should politically apologize to the world for having supported Prop 8.
They really should follow the Community of Christ’s (RLDS) line of thinking on these subjects. Can the body of Christ be full of people filled with hatred and disgust towards their gay brothers and sisters (sometimes literally)?
Otherwise, your words are beautiful and meaningful. I definitely think that most people should read your letters, even if I hope they forget the fact that you belittled your same-sex relationships, and find that it is a miracle that now you get to be in a sealed marriage that takes you to the spirit world for eternity…
Just my feelings.. it’s a mixed bag.
Phil
Joshua -
I commend you for your honesty. I had read earlier posts from you and I found your story compelling but left me with a lot of questions. Your latest post answers some of those questions but raises more. I’ve hesitated to respond because I don’t want to come off as being unkind or skeptical. I’m really not that kind of person.
You may not completely understand this right now, but please be very careful about what you say to other young members of the Church. While the Church still has miles to go in regards to its treatment of its lgbt members, the counsel that the Church now gives them to not enter into a “mixed orientation” marriage is very wise. The Church finally came to the realization that the chance of success for those marriages is basically zero and almost always leads to mountains of heartache and pain. While you are succeeding at this point, success can’t be measured in just a year or two.
Of course every young member wants to follow the Church’s plan of eternal marriage. If telling your story leads someone to believe he/she too can succeed in marriage, only to end up in unhappiness, divorce and possibly even suicide, I’m sure you would feel terrible.
You may not agree with this now, but I really believe you would be doing a disservice if your message encouraged anyone to enter into a “mixed orientation” marriage.
Dave
Dave,
I don’t believe that the church has counseled members to “not enter into mixed orientation marriages. The counsel is that such members should not be counseled to get married as way to cure homosexual attractions.
Successful “mixed orientation” marriage is possible. And not just a few years. Many have been in marriages for many years. To imply that unhappiness or divorce is always the result of the SSA spouse, is not only naive, it is a satanic deception. All marriages have unhappiness. All face reasons to consider divorce.
I am eternally grateful for my marriage. I am so grateful no one ever discouraged me from getting married because of my SSA. A willingness to work on one’s issues rather than an absence of issues is the key to a successful marriage.
Kevin
Fiona,
My wife doesn’t blog. She doesn’t really like being on the computer. She is however, more than willing to speak with others about her experience. If you are actually interested in hearing it from her mouth, please email me and I will give you her number.
Kevin
The lie that every marriage involving someone who deals with SSA is doomed to fail is exactly that, a lie. There are thousands of people out there who, through faith in Jesus Christ, have made such marriage work. Many have married in the temple, been faithful to temple covenants for years, raised healthy children, and are now enjoying God’s greatest invention - grandchildren.
I wish all of you well in figuring out how you are going to live your life, but please don’t lie about those of us who have chosen to live according to the teaching of Jesus Christ.
Blake
Kevin -
I don’t have access to the Church Handbook, so I don’t know what the official counsel is. But clearly the message out there from a number of sources, is that the Church has changed from encouraging all members to marry to something like, “Those who “suffer from same gender attraction” should not get married but should remain celibate.”
The dichotomy here of course is, there is no avenue for a steadfast young person within the Church to know whether or not he/she is gay or lesbian. It just isn’t an option, so it isn’t even considered before getting married.
Like you, thousands of Church members marry, not realizing they are gay, thinking they will “outgrow” their same sex attraction. Yes many of them stay married for decades. But statistics will tell you that the majority of these marriages will be unhappy, unhealthy and doomed from the start. I know literally hundreds of gay Mormon (or formerly Mormon) men who married and will testify to this assessment.
If you’re truly happy, that’s great. But just be very careful about trying to convince others that this will be their experience also.
Dave
It looks like we’ve got anecdotal evidence for both successful and unsuccessful mixed-orientation marriage.
Certainly we could all agree that those entering mixed-orientation marriages should not do it deceptively, and that they should not do it as a means to “cure” themselves or become heterosexual (or more heterosexual).
There are probably special concerns that those in mixed-orientation marriages need to deal with (more so than similarly situated same-orientation marriages), and that those entering mixed-orientation marriages need to be able to communicate well and openly with each other from the beginning in order to have any hope of overcoming the larger obstacles that can be found in their marriages. Probably longer periods of dating and engagements (or at least longer than the routine 3-5 month Mormon ones) would be well advised.
My guess is that there isn’t much unbiased empirical evidence about the success or failure rates of mixed-orientation marriages. If somebody has some to show, we’d all benefit from seeing it, but more round-and-round of “I know dozens/hundreds/thousands just like me” isn’t going to add to this conversation at this point. Thanks.
Empirical evidence is obviously not going to be easy to find. However, one counselor’s website (http://www.gayhusbands.com/) indicates that approximately 4 million women in the US are in mixed-orientation marriages, and she has counseled 30,000 such women since 1985. Some of them chose to leave, some did not — and there are a variety of reasons on each side of the fence.
I am glad any time a couple is happy. I have lost track of how many times I’ve said that. However, I will *never* change my position that I would far rather have an honest gay male friend than a husband who had to force himself to feel sexually attracted to me (as though it is some kind of arduous task) for religious reasons.
Kevin, this site does not allow for open sharing of e-mails — which suits me fine. Laura, please feel free to provide my e-mail to Kevin, because I meant what I said. It’s all very well for someone to announce that their spouse is happy — but I want to hear from the allegedly happy person myself.
According to The Social Organization of Sexuality, in 1990 4.7% of married men (not separated) indicate some level of same-sex desire, attraction or appeal, compared to 3.9% of divorced, widowed or separated men. It is hard to tell how many of them are widowed, are divorced for reasons unrelated to SSA, or even those who are married but will later divorce because of SSA. If you look at the general statistics from the 1990 US Census, you will find 57% of men are married and not separated, while 12% are divorced, widowed or separated. This indicates there is a greater likelihood of divorce, widowing or separation among SSA men, but hardly “basically zero”. I can see why both sides end up knowing hundreds of men who are happily married/divorced. (Women’s statistics are also there. I want to be equal, but don’t have the time.)
http://books.google.com/books?id=72AHO0rE2HoC&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=the+social+organization+of+sexuality+1990&source=web&ots=kHfFtQQH7j&sig=ZS5sk4GqzcR4e8mLVIHTNPsHt-Y#v=onepage&q=the%20social%20organization%20of%20sexuality%201990&f=false
4.7% of men comes to about 4 million. Compare that to 336,001 male couples in same-sex relationships in the 2000 Census.
This article indicates 20% of gay men and 40% of lesbians are currently married to an opposite sex partner. Again, no indication of how many are happy marriages.
http://marriage.about.com/cs/straightspouses/a/straightspouse.htm
This article suggest 80% of mixed-orientation end in divorce:
http://ezinearticles.com/?5-Reasons-Gay—Straight-Marriages-Can-Work&id=918051
Another article that I read, which I can’t find, indicated that two thirds of mixed-orientation marriages end when the gay spouse comes out to their partner. I don’t think it is healthy for any marriage to be based on a lie. Half of the ones who try to make it work anyhow end in divorce, which is about the same rate as straight couples. Since we have already passed the coming out stage, it seems we have as good a chance to stay together as anyone else. I have known many mixed-orientation couples, some of them for 6 years, and all of them have stayed together. I have heard stories where that is not the case, but of the couples I know, they have a very high success rate. I think that is because the ones I know are open and honest with each other.
Here is a Wiki article that I worked on:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-orientation_marriage
There are many famous LGBT people in mixed-orientation marriages, such as Margaret Cho and the previous girlfriends of Ellen DeGeneres and Melissa Etheridge. I think most of them support marriage equality, so it doesn’t seem that you have to attack mixed-orientation marriages in order to support marriage equality. (Seems like an oxymoron anyhow.)
To be honest, I don’t really care what other people tell me the likelihood of my marriage is going to be. I think I should at least be given the chance to make my marriage work.
To those of you who say I should go in the closet so those “young members” won’t be exposed to my lifestyle, doesn’t that sound a little bit hypocritical? There are those who think young members shouldn’t be exposed to same-sex couples. I don’t think anyone deserves to be closeted, and I don’t think the young members need protection. I think we can present the facts and the statistics, and that will allow them to decide for themselves.
I am proud of my marriage and see no reason to hide it. I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to pursue it, though I would recommend that they be completely honest with their spouse and first develop a sexual attraction to their spouse. It might not work for everyone. For a long time I didn’t think it would work for me. But the success rate is hardly “basically zero”.
Dave,
Rest assure that the Church has never said “Those who ’suffer from same gender attraction’ should not get married but should remain celibate.” I don’t know where you got that from, but the Church has never given that counsel. I am very glad I belong to a church that supports me and my family when so few other places do.
You also said “there is no avenue for a steadfast young person within the Church to know whether or not he/she is gay or lesbian.” President Hinckley said “Now we have gays in the church. Good people.” He has said he loves those who refer to themselves as gay or lesbian and they are welcome in the church. Granted, I don’t think all of the members are quite as “up-to-date” as President Hinckley was, but hopefully minds are changing.
I stand by what I said that regardless of our choices, everyone should be able to openly love the person they chose as a life partner. I highly recommend a mixed-orientation marriage to anyone who can be honest with their spouse and develop a sexual attraction for them. I have a great marriage and I am proud of it and will not be silenced. I don’t like the closet and won’t go back in it.
To me, the whole argument about we need to protect the “young members” from being exposed to my lifestyle, just doesn’t seem right (and frankly, hypocritical). It makes it seem as if my lifestyle is not as good as other lifestyles. It is no excuse for forcing an entire population into the closet.
If any of these young members come to me, I will promise them that if they put their faith in God, and follow what He says, even if it is hard for them, He will guide their paths to peace and happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come. We need to be able to sacrifice everything, even the desire for a family (and to Bob’s point, even divorce), and submit to WHATEVER His will for us may be. I imagine that some will want to be married so bad that they will marry someone they are not attracted to without receiving a witness from God that is what should happen. That is not following God. My testimony is following God, and God alone. Not social norms, family pressures, the most recent scientific studies, manipulated statistics, or even well-intentioned leaders who say to get married and it will all go away. God is the only sure foundation upon which we can build our lives.
With God, nothing is impossible, even mixed-orientation marriages.
The Church (this quote via Marlin K. Jensen) has said, however:
My wife and I will celebrate our 25th wedding anniversary in June. We have four children, ages 15-23, and…I am a gay Mormon with a temple recommend and a happy marriage. Not that it necessarily signifies anything, but I served as a bishop and held many other leadership callings. I only mention this to emphasize that we have lived a very normal stereotypical Mormon married life. We have always loved each other, and enjoyed our intimacy together.
Our life has not been without challenges, but what marriage is? When we married, I knew that I was attracted to men, but considered it residue from early childhood activity with a male cousin. Shortly after our marriage, I told my wife about these experiences, but we both thought it was behind us. I didn’t fully realize the internal turmoil my attractions would have on me and to a degree on our marriage. After years of holding everything inside, feeling such shame for my attractions, I finally shared my struggles with my wife. Before sharing with her, the weight of bearing the burden of attraction to men contributed greatly to depression and anxiety. Since sharing fully my life with her, I feel such relief.
My same gender attraction is now OUR challenge, and not mine alone. I believe that the key to making a marriage work, whether it be a heterosexual marriage or a mixed-orientation marriage, is complete honesty and transparency. Knowing that I can turn to my wife when I am overwhelmed or need extra support has made all the difference in our marriage. It made a very good marriage even better. I now know what it means to be married to my best friend. I am truly blessed with a remarkable wife who views our marriage with eternal perspective.
While marriage is not advisable for all homosexuals, it is a viable option for many. It is not a cure for homosexual tendencies. I believe in full disclosure before entering into marriage so that both can make informed choices. I also believe there must be some level of attraction. We all have different levels of sexuality, spirituality, and a host of other characteristics that can make or break a marriage. I am offended when told that my marriage is ‘doomed’ or that I am not living an ‘authentic’ life. I am first and foremost as son of God with divine potential. I am a husband and father. I am so blessed.
Someone asked for a happy wife’s response. My wife will respond in a bit under the name of Steven’s wife.
My husband deals with SSA. We did not openly admit this to each other until about 2 years ago. We have been married for 25 years. All marriages have challenges and ups and downs regardless if SSA is involved or not. I met my best friend over 25 years ago and I was committed to stay with him and work through whatever challenges we had. I am extremely happy and it is through these challenges that we have become stronger as a couple and have solidified our marriage. I haven’t been called a horse before but there you have heard it from my mouth. I guess that is better than being called a donkey.
Joshua wrote: There are many famous LGBT people in mixed-orientation marriages, such as Margaret Cho and the previous girlfriends of Ellen DeGeneres and Melissa Etheridge. I think most of them support marriage equality, so it doesn’t seem that you have to attack mixed-orientation marriages in order to support marriage equality. (Seems like an oxymoron anyhow.)
First, Margaret Cho self-identifies as bisexual. Second, lots of people are in “mixed-orientation marriages” because they are CLOSETED and TOLD BY SOCIETY that being GLBT is “bad.”
I just don’t think you understand, Joshua, how much you are advocating for people to remain closeted when you share your “success story.”
Alison, the phrase “straight from the horse’s mouth” goes back to the old horse trading days. Some dishonest trader might “sore” a horse or do other things to make it act and look younger, but a look at the horse’s teeth would tell the truth about its age (their teeth wear down at a predictable rate). It is not “calling names” at all to say that someone wants to hear it “straight from the horse’s mouth.” I merely meant that it’s all well and good for the husband to proclaim that his wife is delighted beyond measure with the state of their marriage — but that’s him talking, not her.
I am glad that you are happy with your marriage.
I am, however, disturbed at the number of people advocating that young GLBT Mormons get married to someone to whom they are not primarily attracted (the phrase “I managed to develop a sexual attraction for my wife” is beyond offensive to me, because sexual attraction should not be a) an arduous task or b) forced) because that’s what “god” wants. That’s fine within the confines of your church, but then it seems to have spilled over into civil law — “Our god doesn’t like it, so you can’t do it.”
::shrug::
At the end of the day, that’s where I draw the line. Do as you will in your church; I could not possibly care less. But keep your religion out of civil law.
Laura,
I know you want the church to change, but there are things you can do right now to show your support for LGBT people within the Mormon community. Right now, the web site says these things:
* “The vast majority of the mixed-orientation marriages ended in tragedy or divorce.” (Which you admittedly have no statistics to back up. I’m sorry people had a bad experience, but they need to realize that everyone has a different experience.)
* “Consider what it would be like to either: 1) marry someone you were not physically attracted to, or 2) marry someone who is not at all physically attracted to you.” (Many of us have testified we have developed a sexual (and physical) attraction for our spouse.)
* “Would you want your child to marry someone in this situation?” (I see this as just a scare tactic. I’m glad my in-laws said YES to this question.)
* “Within our own church community, thousands of LDS families have been formed and then destroyed because of counsel that homosexual people should marry members of the opposite sex. When their sexual orientation is not changed by marriage, both spouses and any children suffer.” (I don’t think any of us say that we are no longer attracted to the same sex, but our marriage hasn’t been destroyed.)
The statistics both fiona64 and I came up with were 4 million SSA men married to women. Compare that with 336,001 male couples and you realize that the majority of SSA men are in mixed-orientation couples. (I haven’t done the statistics for women.) You simply can’t say you support LGBT people and their relationships, when you attack the vast majority of our marriages.
I think you hit on a key point:
“Certainly we could all agree that those entering mixed-orientation marriages should not do it deceptively, and that they should not do it as a means to “cure” themselves or become heterosexual (or more heterosexual). ”
Let’s focus on that, rather than make baseless claims about how horrible of husbands we are.
Joshua wrote: (Many of us have testified we have developed a sexual (and physical) attraction for our spouse.)
You really don’t understand how offensive this phrase is, do you? You didn’t like a previous article in which someone referred to a wife in this situation as (what was the phrase) a “therapeutic object,” right? But that’s exactly what you’re saying here when you say that you managed to develop a sexual attraction to someone of the opposite sex. That means you *forced yourself* to do it.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I sure as Hades wouldn’t find that attractive in a mate. “Gosh, honey, I really like men … but I’ve forced myself to be attracted to you. Isn’t that great?” Gee, don’t I feel special now …
Again, different strokes for different folks, but I (and just about every woman I’ve ever met) would find that pretty off-putting.
Joshua then wrote: Let’s focus on that, rather than make baseless claims about how horrible of husbands we are.
Please show me one place that I, or anyone else on this board, has said that you (or anyone else) is a horrible husband. The only thing I have asked for is to hear from the wives, as opposed to the husbands announcing that their wives were blissfully happy. I don’t know about anyone else here, but I’m an adult and capable of speaking for myself; I don’t need my husband to be my mouthpiece for what I allegedly do or do not think.
The fact remains, Joshua, that the vast majority of gay and lesbian people married to those of the opposite sex have done (or are doing so) because they are told that their own feelings/attractions are (choose one) unnatural, ungodly, demonic, nasty, icky … you get the point. They are not there because it’s their first choice, okay? They are there because they are trying desperately to be straight. I get it; you’re the exception to the rule. Hooray for you. But you are NOT the majority of cases.
No one said you are a bad husband or anything like it; I just think that your position is a dangerous one to advocate: “Force yourself to be attracted to someone of the opposite sex, and God will smile on you.” How is that helpful? Seriously, I want to know.
Joshua -
When I said “please be very careful about what you say to other young members of the Church”, I didn’t mean to imply that you should go back into the closet as you stated above. I am 100% for being out, honest and direct. You can be out, honest and direct and still be careful in what you say. Let me try to bullet list why I’m urging you to be very careful in what you say.
- Every steadfast Mormon youth or young adult wants to eventually get married (to the opposite sex) and raise a family. It is programmed into us beginning at day one. As young adults they are eagerly awaiting any crumb of counsel that tells them how they can succeed at finding their eternal companion.
- Clearly, not all young adults are ready to get married and some probably should never get married (to the opposite sex). I know there’s disagreement on this, but according to the post from Laura above (Thank you Laura) the counsel from the Church indicates that there are some members who should choose celibacy instead.
- Sexuality is very complex even among heterosexuals. I am sure you will agree that a homosexual and a heterosexual trying to have a long-term fulfilling sexual relationship, further complicates an already complex “dance” one hundred fold (or more)! There is not a “one size fits all” solution to having a successful mixed-orientation marriage.
- I can imagine a well-meaning Bishop or Stake President asking you and your wife to address a young-adult fireside about mixed-orientation marriage. I can imagine that in your exuberance, you might promise those in attendance that if they are completely open and honest and put their faith in the Lord, that they too can have a successful mixed-orientation marriage. I can imagine some of those in attendance who may or may not know they are gay, but desire more than anything to be married, would feel that your message was an answer to their prayers and take your promise to the altar.
- There is a very real possibility that some, many or most (allowing for all possibilities here) of those marriages will be miserable, end up in broken families, divorce and even suicide. There is also a possibility that some may end up successful. Whether or not some bloggers here choose to accept it, thousands of mixed-orientation marriages that have been open, honest and “putting their faith in the Lord”, have ended up in divorce, broken families and even suicide.
I don’t think you will want that on your conscience. This is why I’m asking you to please be careful in what you say to others. Not only for your sake, but for the sake of others who may still have their “hell” to go through.
Instead, you can still be open and honest and direct by:
- Speaking about your own experience and not making promises.
- State that there have been, there are and will yet be many challenges, temptations and rewards.
- State that it has only been a short while and while you feel success at the moment, you don’t know what path it may take tomorrow, but that you will do everything in your power to ensure long term happiness, even if that means divorce someday.
- State that your “solution” may not work for anyone else and won’t work for some.
I don’t agree with your response to Laura (about website bullet points above). I would like to say why and I would like to share my experiences when I get a chance. Unfortunately, I am extremely busy in my professional life and my personal life. I believe I have been averaging only four hours of sleep a night lately. I’ve been wanting to answer your “going back in the closet” response since yesterday morning, but this is the first free moments I’ve had since then. I’ll try to free up some time in the next few weeks to give a more complete response.
Don’t get me wrong. I am enjoying your posts and I am gaining new insight from them.
Dave
Fiona,
Not every straight married couple was head over heals sexually attracted to each other from day one. This “love at first sight” thing from fairy tales is a beautiful thing when it happens, but it is not the norm. In many instances, even for straight people, the attraction develops over time.
Think about the story of Beauty and the Beast. That was very much a love story, but hardly a love at first sight story. Was the Beast offended because Beauty didn’t want to jump in bed with him the first time she saw him? Is he worried that her love isn’t real because it isn’t based on sex? It didn’t sound like the beast was very interested in jumping in bed with her the first time he saw her either. They fell in love with each other as they got to know each other. Their love DEVELOPED. A similar story is Pride and Prejudice. Elizabeth hated Darcy at the beginning, much less wanted to jump in bed with him. But as she saw him in different lights, she started to see characteristics about him she hadn’t known before. Her love for him DEVELOPED. Poor Darcy and poor Beast, to have to be stuck with women who had to force themselves to love them.
I think our society is WAY too focused on sex. Yes, I understand sex is an important thing. My wife and I have great sex, and we feel we are very blessed with that. But it is not a foundation of our relationship. You know what, we didn’t even have sex until after we were married, so we actually promised to spend the rest of eternity with each other without having any idea how sex would be. MANY Mormon couples do the same thing. I know many straight couples who found out they weren’t very sexual compatible after they were married. But because their relationship wasn’t based on sex, they made their marriage work anyhow. I actually have a much better sex life than some of the straight couples I know.
I first fell in love with her for who she is, and then the sexual attractions came from that. MANY heterosexuals will tell you the exact same story. The movies, songs and the media in general all seem to focus on the importance of sexual appeal. Yes, that is important, but it can develop after the other things. It doesn’t have to be the first thing you notice, and it doesn’t have to be the foundation of the relationship.
This is a quote from this web site:
“Marriage is not merely about sex. It is about sharing your love and your life with a partner who cares about you whether or not you’re at your best. It is about giving yourself completely to another and it is about taking responsibility for another’s life and sticking together no matter what happens.”
Sexual appeal develops for many couples, not just mixed-orientation couples. I have met people who thought their current spouse was dorky the first time they met them. They had no sexual attraction to each other, even though they are both straight. Now they do. Their sexual attraction DEVELOPED.
What is important is that I am currently attracted to my wife and it is very natural. I think you should want to jump into bed with the person before you get married. I do not think you should want to jump into bed with the person the first time you set eyes on them. That goes for both gay and straight people. The words I used were:
“I found myself wanting more than I would allow myself to have before marriage.”
Believe me, it was not forced. I wanted to do things with her that I wouldn’t allow myself to do before marriage and I had to restrain myself. I was very excited to jump into bed with her when I proposed. I did not force myself to be sexual attracted to her. It came.
And really, it didn’t take that long. I kissed her on the second date because I wanted to. My sexual attraction had already developed to the point that I wanted to kiss after only knowing her for fourteen days. In that respect, I beat both Belle and Elizabeth at developing a sexual attraction. If you want to shield little kids from my story, you should first shield them from the story about Beauty and the Beast, because it really took a long time for Belle to develop her sexual attraction.
I think it is healthy for sexual attraction to develop over time as you get to know the person more. I think anything else is lust.
Thanks Dave,
I think I see where you are coming from better now. I have tried to focus on following God and his plan for me. I do put that over happiness, so I don’t think I would jump ship the first sign of trouble in our relationship. I would only consider divorce if I had a very clear indication from God. I doubt God would ask me to do that, but well, he did ask Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, so I guess anything is possible. For me, ending my marriage would be akin to Abraham sacrificing Isaac. I would be giving up my most prized treasure. But I can’t say God won’t ask that of me.
Other than that, I agree with you. I wouldn’t want to make any false promises. I fully realize that marriage might not be in the plan for everyone. Balancing the desire for marriage versus being content with the things which God has allotted us is a tricky balance. I would never promise that anyone would get married - gay or straight. I know way too many older single women to ever do that. I will promise that if we put our faith in God, and submit our will to his, including the desire for a family, He will direct our paths and lead us to peace in this life and eternal life in the world to come. That is the promise of the gospel.
I do agree that adding mixed-orientation into a marriage can add extra difficulties, but sometimes those difficulties can be strengths. As Alison said “it is through these challenges that we have become stronger as a couple and have solidified our marriage.” I feel because we have extra challenges it had made our marriage stronger.
I don’t think it is worse than some other challenges people face. I personally know people who go into a marriage where a spouse has ADD, depression, diabetes, major liver problems, children from a previous marriage, divorce, STDs, and other major things. Each of these things can be a strain on a marriage. Yes, they have extra hurdles to jump through, and while I think it is wrong to say these aren’t concerns and you shouldn’t worry about them, I think it is even more damaging to say it has basically zero chance of success. These people might already feel like pariahs. You want to make us feel even more so? Yes, maybe some of those marriages will be miserable, end up in broken families, divorce and even suicide, but doesn’t every marriage have that possibility? Should only ADD people marry each other, so they don’t bring down someone who is “normal”?
Interracial marriage is another good example. Sure, there are cultural differences, and statistics show they are less stable and more likely to get divorced than other marriages. I think way too many people underestimate the importance of culture (even if both are American, there are cultural differences) and I know interracial couples who have gotten divorce. But to what point should we discourage interracial marriages? Despite the challenges, I don’t think we should discourage it at all. I know interracial couples who have great marriages. I think if they can go in “open, honest and “putting their faith in the Lord”, as you say, I think they should go for it.
To me, the statement “Would you want your child to marry someone in this situation?” could just as well apply to a white family considering whether they would let their white daughter marry her black boyfriend. It is offensive. The assumption is that he would make an inferior husband because he is black. I don’t see much of a difference between that and saying I would make an inferior husband because I’m not straight. (You wouldn’t want your daughter to marry someone like Joshua, now would you?)
I think the reason you think the chances of mixed-orientation marriages succeeding are so low is because you only hear about it when it fails. Unlike interracial couples, you don’t hear about people like Steve and his wife who become Bishops and live happy lives for 25 years because no one knows that they are a mixed-orientation couple.
Joshua, I appreciate your perspective. However, Beauty and the Beast has its basis in the Greco-Roman myth of Cupid and Psyche — in other words, the wounded healer who forbids contact. I don’t think it’s exactly analogous. Nor do I think that Jane Austen’s story is analogous, because Darcy and Elizabeth can’t stand each other when they first meet. Hardly a case of “love at first sight.”
At no point did I say that it should be love at first sight. I don’t know where you got that from, because I never said it. You’re the only one who has said that. What I did say is that I think that forcing a sexual attraction where one does not exist is not something I would find attractive in a mate. You told us that you told your wife that you were only attracted to men. You have repeatedly used the phrase “I managed to develop a sexual attraction for her” as though it was some kind of Sisyphean chore. *That* is the phrase that I cannot get past, okay?
Of *course* love develops over time; that’s a duh. Sexual attraction is part and parcel of that and, IMO, when you force it you are doing something unpleasant for both parties.
As I said, it works for you. I get it. However, I agree with David Hoen that your level of advocacy for your situation is *dangerous,* for all of the reasons he outlined.
Joshua wrote: I think the reason you think the chances of mixed-orientation marriages succeeding are so low is because you only hear about it when it fails. Unlike interracial couples, you don’t hear about people like Steve and his wife who become Bishops and live happy lives for 25 years because no one knows that they are a mixed-orientation couple.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for proving everybody’s point with this paragraph, Joshua. “No one knows they are a mixed-orientation couple” is exactly the point — a gay man pretending to be straight because that’s what “god” wants him to do.
::sigh::
I give up. You really don’t understand why your position is offensive to me as a straight woman, so I can’t expect you to understand why it might conceivably be offensive to GLBT people.
Joshua wrote: I have tried to focus on following God and his plan for me. I do put that over happiness,
Joshua, is that “God’s plan as defined by your Church”? It’s a serious question. It’s obvious to me that you have put the Church’s ideology way above happiness.
I just want you to think about some of the things you write, because it’s obvious to me that you don’t realize the hurtful, misogynistic impact of some of your words.
I think Joshua is saying that he’s followed what he believes is God’s plan for him. I’m not sure if he’s saying that God’s plan for everyone is the same as God’s plan for Joshua. I don’t think he’s saying that specifically, but I think he believes God has a plan for everyone. It’s easy enough to solve the problem by including specific phrases like, “I believe God’s plan for me” rather than by saying simply, “God’s plan.” I think Joshua’s mostly done this and I don’t think that he’s saying everyone should do the same as he did - to put God’s plan over their own happiness - but as Dave pointed out, it could be construed that way by someone living in quiet desperation.
So we all have to be careful how we present our lives and choices to others, lest we cause more harm than help. If you support and enact laws like Proposition 8, or if you enforce any particular kind of relationship because you believe that God’s plan for the world only allows for the same kind of relationship you have, you are telling the world that they have to follow your God whether they choose to or not. I don’t think God wants followers that force each other into obedience, but that’s my personal take on the matter.
I would like to chime in on this conversation. My husband and I have been married for 2 1/2 years. My husband has struggled with SSA since he can remember. I could spend a considerable amount of time trying to tell his story of healing but it’s not my story to tell. What I would like to share is that our marriage is as healthy and happy as any marriage.
We have our problems, but I doubt that any of them could be traced back to his SSA (or mine for that matter). Just like any other couple, any difficulties that we have are more to do with our unique strengths and weaknesses as individuals than with either of our past struggles with SSA.
We do not consider our marriage to be of mixed orientation. We are two people who have been saved, sanctified, and redeemed.
Hi Joshua, I read your article and the comments, and I have a few comments and questions for you.
First, I do not find your point of view, life, or choices offensive. It’s your life and I’m pleased to hear that you and your wife are ecstatically happy newlyweds.
I do have to wonder about a few things…let’s start with your reference to relationships with men.
1) Did you take them as seriously as you did your relationship with your wife? You didn’t mention treating them prayerfully.
2) Were you actually in love with any of them? (No judgment here–that kind of love is rare, and having it vs. not having it within a small number of relationships is probably just chance.)
3) How different might your story be if you’d been as deeply in love with and committed to a man as you became with your wife?
You talk about SSA and refer to yourself as gay, but is it possible that you are somewhat bisexual? (I realize this would be a difficult question for anyone to answer because you’d have to be genuinely attracted to a huge number of people before you had an accurate sample. I know bisexuals who lean more strongly towards one sex or the other, so I believe in the continuum.)
My bigger question, however, is in light of your life story, why exactly were you fully supportive of Prop 8? YOU, after all, had a choice. You tried celibacy. Then you tried men. Then you tried the mixed-orientation path, which worked out for you, and we’re all happy for you. I do share the concerns of some that encouraging mixed-orientation marriage in a church setting would pressure you to downplay the process you went through to get there, which would be misleading.
I believe that people have the right to make their own lives, and their own mistakes. Even in a parent-child relationship, where it IS the place of the parent to steer the child from harm, at some point that has to break down. Adults in a free society do not have even this authority over each other. And who is to say that they know better than someone else how they ought to live their life? You sound like you resent people who condemn mixed-orientation marriages. So do you believe that adults on different paths should be treated equally under the law, or do you not?
The freedom to express opinions means you can shout it from the rooftops, but not that you can write it into law. Adults do not have the right to tell other independent adults what to do (unless it has a direct impact on the public…for example, laws against drunk driving are just fine, but laws against alcohol consumption on a Sunday really aren’t). That is not what the democratic system is for, and THAT is a great abuse that so many of us are upset about. I would really appreciate an explanation of how Prop 8 was anything else, because I’ve been honestly looking and I just don’t see it.
Carrie,
VERY good points. I would love to quote you in a thread on Facbook, especially this line:
“…The freedom to express opinions means you can shout it from the rooftops, but not that you can write it into law. Adults do not have the right to tell other independent adults what to do (unless it has a direct impact on the public…for example, laws against drunk driving are just fine, but laws against alcohol consumption on a Sunday really aren’t).”
Do you mind? I’ll check back later for your response, or you can email my gmail account at sheri42lawson.
Thanks much!
Sheri
My son is almost 15. He was sexually molested when he was 9 or 10 by an older high school age boy. He later engaged in more sexual activity with other boys. This took place when he was 11-12 years old. Unknown to us he has since been going to non-member friends houses watching gay porno on their computer. We found out about all this today. He says he has been gay for the past three years. He says that he cannot change and does not want to, that there is nothing wrong with him and that he has read the “scientific” research to back it up. I am confused about whether he really is gay or if the early sexual experiences have confused him. I want to be supportive of him and show him I love him unconditionally, but I am still reeling with the shock and wondering if I should seek treatment for him in this situation. Please advise me based on your own feelings of SSA. Thanks you.
First, my heart goes out to your family and your son. No person should have to go through life with the weight of sexual abuse. Your son and your whole family could probably benefit from some professional counseling and a lot of love. Sexual acting out post-molestation is quite common, but it’s not the safest way to react, and a good therapist can help sift through the hurt, guilt and shame and find a better channel for that energy and tension.
Personally, I would love him first and encourage him to seek counseling not as a means/tool to “cure” him of his homosexuality or to “remove his confusion,” but as a means to help him cope with the brutality done to his body, mind and soul. This goes for him, for his parents and for his siblings. Tell him - and more importantly, show him - that he is accepted and loved and supported by you and welcome in the family regardless of his sexual orientation and identification. He needs a good dose of unconditional love to help him through the hard therapy work, and a good therapist who specializes in counseling victims of childhood sexual abuse.
There are lots of places online that explore some of the realities and results of sexual abuse on young children. Here and here are a couple of personal accounts that raise some issues you may be facing now or in the future, depending on how you and your family deal with the crisis at hand.
I’m sure others will have things to say as well.
Natwood,
I echo what Laura said about child molestation. I was never molested, so it definitely isn’t always caused by molestation.
For me, what has always been important has been following God. Sexual orientation doesn’t really matter. Your son can still chose to follow God. Everyone can find peace and happiness in this life through following the commandments of God. Maybe it will be through marriage to a woman and maybe it will be celibacy.
Pornography is horrible regardless of what gender you are looking at. It is based entirely on lust and weakens our ability to have real relationships. I would deal with this discovery the same way you would if you found if he was looking at naked women.
If he does not have a testimony of the restored gospel, then he might consider same-sex relationships as an answer. For some, this will be the answer that will give them the most peace, until they can gain a testimony for themselves of the restored gospel. Forcing someone to follow the gospel who does not have a testimony will not bring them peace and goes against the principle of agency.
Again, whatever he decided to do, love him, as Laura said. That is your commandment. Their is an excellent article in the Ensign about a woman whose sister chose to be in a same-sex relationship. I think it is called The Best Thing I Can Do for Leigh. Basically the discovers that following the commandment to love her sister has been the best way to deal with her sister.
Good luck!
Carrie,
Sorry I didn’t respond earlier. It was a complicated question and I wanted to do it justice.
According to the American Psychological Association, “Sexual orientation refers to an enduring pattern of emotional, romantic, and/or sexual attractions to men, women, or both sexes.” 20 years of exclusive attraction to men is a long enough of a pattern to determine I was gay. I have since only been attracted to one woman, my wife, so I am not sure if that constitutes a change in sexual orientation or not. I have heard people argue both ways.
Regardless of my current sexual orientation, it is important to note SSA, mixed-orientation marriage and LGBT all include bisexuals. I am LGBT. I know many people who thought they could never be attracted to the opposite sex have developed attractions, and have gone on to create faithful and fulfilling marriages. I see no reason to lie about it or hide it. Please explain to me why you think this is important.
This web site lies about it (we aren’t attracted to our spouse), uses scare tactics (you wouldn’t want your daughter to marry someone like that) and makes up statistics (rates are extremely low, even though they can’t point to any supporting evidence.) I admit that many Prop 8 supporters likewise lied, made up statistics and used scare tactics against LGBT people. I cannot condone any of these tactics of deceit that are used against my fellow LGBT brothers and sisters, including those used by this web site. In my mind, this dishonest discrimination against those of us in mixed-orientation marriages is nothing short of homophobia.
I did not go very far with men. I was told by God very clearly and fairly early on that was not the path he wanted me to go. I fully believe that other people have developed much more intimate relationships with the same-sex than I ever did.
I agree with you that there should not be any law telling adults what to do (unless like you said it has a direct impact on the public). I think same-sex couples should have all the rights and benefits they need to support and protect their families. However, if we try to come up with what marriage means to all of us, I am going to vote what marriage means to me. If marriage means something else to someone else that is fine, but when it comes to the law that I have to abide by, I will vote my conscious. That is what democracy is all about.
Marriage is not simply an expression of love, a commitment between two people, social status, or a vehicle for legal rights. Civil unions provide that. Marriage is also the union of the genders, which provide the ideal environment for raising children. Especially now that I am married, I think I better understand why both genders need each other.
Prop 8 did not prohibit anyone from getting married. All it did was provide a legal definition of marriage which everyone can subscribe to, which is broad enough to allow everyone to get married who wants to, while still allowing those who chose to be in a same-sex relationship to have the rights and benefits they need. It does not tell any adult what they should or should not do.
Dear Nat:
I would second the advice to love your son. Molestation does not create someone’s sexual identity. It is an immutable trait. This is no different from him “discovering girls” at puberty; it’s just that he is attracted to boys. He may well be bisexual (only time will tell), or he may be gay. Regardless, he is still your son.
“Gaining a testimony of the restored gospel” does not change someone’s sexual orientation (although it may make them feel like they need to hide it). If you really feel that he is in need of counseling, take him to someone who specializes in victims of sexual molestation and not some NARTH-like quackery.
Best,
Fiona
Yes, dispense the obligatory “feel sorry” platitudes. The unconditional love notion has been repeated over and over many times. But has this really helped this situation? Have we contributed to any real hard solutions for our distressed guest on this blog?
No. Honestly. No. Go back and let’s re-read what has been offered: Professional Counseling. I’ll try to save you a few thousands of dollars. You might get some better advice from learned doctors and people who make counseling their careers. But, I’m living the life. This situation is part of my life. I relate to a good deal of what has been discussed on this blog. So, my opinion might help illuminate some foreign concept that some heterosexual might not comprehend. And, above all, since I am gay I carry a little weight on this subject.
And I’ll start by saying one simple phrase: I am not broken. Never have been. Never considered myself an abhorrent member of society. I contribute to the welfare and the livelihood of my neighborhood and I go to work every day to make my contribution to the wheels of commerce. I’m not suffering an affliction or a mental retardation. If my being gay and my desire to share my life with someone of my gender is just an affliction I can control…then I want some heterosexuals to see if they consider their love and affection with their wives is just a behavioral condition. I feel for you if you think love is just lust and sex. I know some people try to debase me and my fellow gays by focusing on the sex part. I will call you out as rude and incredibly ignorant if you do. You demean yourself if you think songs, sonnets and watching sunsets together can only apply to the heterosexual world. It doesn’t and it hasn’t for eons.
No matter how some elements of society has tried to squelch any notions about gay relationships, it has been unsuccessful in preventing gays (me at least) to know that a gay life is not about living with compromises and gays can live a full and happy existence. I know it. I can introduce you to many who are living not with a woman, and not in abject celibacy. (Which seems to be the only two choices by some people.)
You wonder why gays have a hard time then you find them living with families who say they are “unconditional” in their love and yet they act in much different ways. So, pass on the platitudes and show by your actions.
If those are the only two choices for gays, then it’s not a leap of logic to understand why gays are looking for happiness in places other than in a Mormon Church or, in some cases, in ANY church/synagogue/temple.
You wonder why some men go to the bars? They learn to drink their troubles away. They might even find drugs to deaden the heartache that is tangible and real.
I see recovering-Mormons even taking up the habit of smoking. Why? It’s stupid. I know, but it’s their way of saying F*** YOU to the world and especially to their Mormon heritage. It’s a form of protest. It’s not to look ‘cool’. Smoking is a reaction when Mormon gays start to readdress all that has been taught in their lives…from the Word of Wisdom. When gays realize their ‘condition’ is not of their choice and yet it doesn’t jive with LDS dogma then it is a natural reaction to rebel against even rational, healthy advice they were taught in Sunday School. I’m trying to rid my friends of that nasty habit.
So, there is not a life for gay Mormons in bars. That’s not an alternative.
Here are some ideas for recovering gay Mormons. Find your niche. Find men with similar outlooks on life and living. There are Class ‘A’ gays you might fit in with. Men with successful careers and living in a standard neighborhood and fitting in. There might be gays that love to travel. Those who love to hike. There’s even a motorcycle or cycling clubs. A mixture of all these options. You won’t find in these clubs being sponsored by the local Ward/Stake so steer clear of expecting “support” from there.
I am will not remain celibate. I don’t wish to be pitied (because I’m not broken, remember!). It is hard enough for heterosexuals to find mates so you can understand that this problem is magnified in the homosexual world. Less opportunities for catching one in the pond. But, you can live a healthy, balanced life and be gay. You may not find a soul-mate but you do not have to live a celibate life nor restrict your limited life span on this tiny planet with being single and unloved.
I’m not broken and neither is your son.
Hi, CowboyII.
The only reason I suggested counseling is that a lot of kids who are victims of molestation think it was their fault. Kids who are victims of molestation need to have help to understand that they did not invite the abuse — that they are the victims of a crime of power and control.
I did not suggest counseling because the son is gay or bisexual, and if it came across that way then I apologize.
As a straight ally, I would like to thank you for the insight you provided in your post. I was once told by a member of the Church of LDS that he believed that the Church (which tells its gay members to remain celibate and single and not seek out other gay or lesbian people in social situations) was the best support system for someone like Stuart Matis. I wish I were making that up. We all know what happened with Stuart.
IMO, our bodies and sexuality are holy because they were given to us by our Creator. No one’s sexuality is better or “more appropriate” than anyone else’s; it simply is what it is. No one should be pitied for their sexuality: in that, you and I are wholly in agreement.
Best,
Fiona
Joshua wrote: Marriage is not simply an expression of love, a commitment between two people, social status, or a vehicle for legal rights. Civil unions provide that. Marriage is also the union of the genders, which provide the ideal environment for raising children. Especially now that I am married, I think I better understand why both genders need each other.
Prop 8 did not prohibit anyone from getting married. All it did was provide a legal definition of marriage which everyone can subscribe to, which is broad enough to allow everyone to get married who wants to, while still allowing those who chose to be in a same-sex relationship to have the rights and benefits they need. It does not tell any adult what they should or should not do.
—-
Wrong, wrong, wrong! Prop 8 removed the existing right of same-sex partners to marry their loved one. Don’t give me the “they have the same right to marry someone of the opposite sex” party line, okay? Prop 8 *took something away* from gay men and lesbians.
California does not allow for civil unions. That’s another ridiculous argument where Prop 8 is concerned. Domestic partnerships have requirements that marriages do not (e.g., one must be cohabitating with one’s DP or the partnership is void, one cannot have been in another DP in the previous 6 months, etc.). You might want to educate yourself on the matter. Civil unions, where they exist, are not recognized outside the state in which they are permitted — in other words, if you move, your civil union doesn’t go with you (unlike marriage), and the same goes for DPs.
Please enjoy this article which explains why marriage and civil unions are not the same. http://www.religioustolerance.org/mar_bene.htm
If a civil union is good enough for gay and lesbian couples, why shouldn’t it be good enough for you as a man in a mixed-orientation marriage? Ask yourself that.
Finally, you bring up the old “reproduction” argument. I am childfree; I had a tubal ligation before I met my husband. Yet, we are allowed to marry. The infertile are allowed to marry. The post-fertile are allowed to marry. There is no requirement to have children in order to be married, any more than there is a requirement to be married in order to have children.
Once again, you are behaving as those your Church’s doctrine constitutes civil law, and that gay men and lesbians should just accept second-class status.
Nice.
Fiona64,
I never said gay men and lesbians should be second-class citizens. One of my main purposes of coming here was to address the lies aimed at faithful LGBT members of the church and proclaim loud and clear that those with same-sex attractions, both gay and bisexual, can and are receiving all the blessings any other member of the Church receives. If you put your faith in God and follow Him and no one else, He will take care of you and lead you in the paths of peace and happiness.
CowboyII,
You said “When gays realize their ‘condition’ is not of their choice and yet it doesn’t jive with LDS dogma.” What part of their “condition” goes against LDS dogma? The only part of their “condition” that they did not chose is their sexual orientation, and there is no conflict with LDS dogma there. The leaders have been very clear about that. They only thing that doesn’t jive might be their lifestyle, and they can chose their lifestyle just as easily as straight people.
You said you are not celibate, and yet neither have you found your “soul mate”. You said “You may not find a soul-mate but you do not have to live a celibate life nor restrict your limited life span on this tiny planet with being single and unloved.”
It seems you have a problem with more than just the church’s teachings on homosexual behavior; you have a problem with the church’s teachings on sex outside of marriage. Many heterosexuals have felt the same thing, and many heterosexuals have left the church because they did not want to be celibate until they found their “soul-mate”.
Promiscuity is not part of being gay any more than it is part of being straight. That is my main concern with Natwood’s son. If he thinks watching pornography is part of being gay and that he didn’t chose it, he has some serious problems. You can just as much expect a gay son to stay pure and celibate while he is living under your roof as you can a straight son. Many straight people also have problems with pornography.
By the same logic, I might add, then it’s not a leap of logic to understand why straights are looking for happiness in places other than in a Mormon Church or, in some cases, in ANY church/synagogue/temple. Many religions teach that straight people should not live the type of lifestyle you propose.
If that is the lifestyle you want to live, then go ahead. Please allow us to live our chosen lifestyle. Please do not join with this web site in spreading lies, scare tactics and fabricates information to persecute us, including the one that our doctrine doesn’t “jive” with our sexual orientation. I express my beliefs, but I don’t believe that such beliefs should be stated in the law. I keep those separate. I hope for equal treatment so that you can live the lifestyle you want to live. There are injustices. There are over 1100 federal rights not granted to same-sex couples. I think rather than fighting each other we should come together to get those rights granted. That was the purpose of my post. I will not sit still while others spread lies about mixed-orientation marriages, but neither will I sit still for the mistreatment of those who chose a path different than mine.
From where I stand, I’d hazard a guess that calling people liars and homophobes isn’t really going to convince them to work with you. Just sayin’.
Joshua wrote: I never said gay men and lesbians should be second-class citizens. One of my main purposes of coming here was to address the lies aimed at faithful LGBT members of the church and proclaim loud and clear that those with same-sex attractions, both gay and bisexual, can and are receiving all the blessings any other member of the Church receives. If you put your faith in God and follow Him and no one else, He will take care of you and lead you in the paths of peace and happiness.
—-
You strongly implied, Joshua, that civil unions should be “good enough” for gay men and lesbians who wish to marry their same-sex partners. That is saying that they should be second-class citizens, Joshua. No more, no less.
You are being a little disingenuous when you say that LGBT members of the church can receive the same blessings as any other member of the church, if you ask me. However, I’m not going to argue your theology with you any further. I am not ignorant of your church’s teachings; I have nice Mormon parents and I know how to read.
Saying that someone should follow the guidance of a church without any critical thinking is a guarantee to “peace and happiness” disturbs me, Joshua — no matter what church it is. Churches are led by fallible people who sometimes have inappropriate ideas.
This website, despite the aspersions you continue to cast on it, is NOT telling lies about your church and its doctrine. Actual church publications have been quoted here repeatedly. It’s all well and good for you, married for less than a year to a woman to whom you admit that you “managed” to develop a sexual attraction, to talk about how your way is the right one for everyone — but it isn’t. Your way is right for you, according to your own testimony, and I see no reason to disbelieve you. But you are saying things that may well cause harm to another young person — AS HAS ALREADY BEEN POINTED OUT.
I also don’t see anyone trying to stop you from “living your chosen lifestyle,” but it’s very easy for me to read between the lines and see that you voted in favor of Prop 8 and are okay with people who choose a different lifestyle from yours being forced into a second-class relationship that requires dozens (if not hundreds) of legal documents to get even a handful of the same rights — and those documents are sometimes ignored (google Janice Langbehn if you doubt me).
Wake up and smell the (forbidden by your church) coffee, Joshua. I’m beginning to feel very sorry for you.
Hi, Dr. Bones. I must admit that it amuses me when Joshua calls a group of people working toward full equality for GLBT people “homophobes.”
Best,
Fiona
I never said I carry a Temple Recommend in my wallet, Mr. Joshua. So you can quit passing judgment about my sexual proclivities. I could just as well accuse you of cruising truck stops or restrooms at the park. [Moderated - please let's avoid the specific personal attacks; we've been close to the line on this thread, and this was the boundary.]. So, quit projecting your morals onto me.
You might have to point out where I have been lying. I can’t for the sake of me see where anything I have said is a lie. I can say the LDS church leaders haven’t always been clear about what causes homosexuality…have they? Honestly! You have the gall to say the LDS Leaders have been clear about the causes of sexual orientation? Oh, Please! Go back and get a little more educated on the history of the LDS Church and its gay Saints.
Then, let’s say the Church doesn’t jive with gays when they say they can’t congregate or associate with other gays. (Thanks, fiona, I didn’t know about that.) Can’t you see how that dehumanizes people? THAT’s the way the LDS Church doesn’t jive with me.
As for celibacy… I did it for too long. I’m embarrassed to even admit how many years..YEARS! I tell you! I lived a solitary and lonely life since college days and way into my professional career. My focus in life was work and it included a lot of travel that kept me busy. Never once did I have a tryst of any kind and my social life was non existent. That was the worst mistake of my life. I regret I didn’t tell myself that I can have a social life and get involved with other gay men. I would have been a lot more happy.
Here is where natwood’s son needs help in being a vibrant and engaged member of society and not be relegated to warming some seat in a pew in some chapel. That’s all he gets to do if he stays in the LDS Church. There is no support and, damn it, everyone here reading this blog knows the existing loathing and oblique bigotry there exists in society towards gays. It is palpable in the LDS Church and if you don’t recognize that fact, you are in deep denial.
Maybe, Mr. Joshua, you are a favorite son on this website. But don’t lecture me on spreading lies. Don’t accuse me of using scare tactics…(where have I, by the way?) and NOTHING I have “fabricated”. I could call you [something annoying] for accusing me of such things…but fiona is correct: I feel very sorry for you.
I know this conversation is personal and maddening, and it’s truly bizarre to be called a homophobic liar when you’re telling your story on a site working for marriage equality, but we can all suck it up, own our positions and let the facts speak for themselves. Now, back to checking out the “lies, damn lies and statistics.”
Oh…Hi, fiona. .
I’m not against counseling. I think it is a very necessary in some situations. I trust some professional counseling services because some of them are guided by strict professional codes. Those codes are there to protect the people they serve from any harm. But frankly, I wouldn’t trust a Mormon professional counselor. Maybe if one or two Mormon counselors could convince me otherwise, but I would avoid stepping into a clinic that has pictures of the latest Prophet on the walls.
I know that isn’t fair. I’m sure there are many professional counselors who are Mormon and can keep a strictly professional code of conduct in play with his/her work but I feel too much anti-gay bias from their non-professional environment would taint their advice/counsel.
cowboyII wrote: Maybe if one or two Mormon counselors could convince me otherwise, but I would avoid stepping into a clinic that has pictures of the latest Prophet on the walls.
NARTH, Evergreen and similar “reparative therapy” organizations have all been denounced by the American Psychological Association and the American Psychiatric Association for their abusive methodologies. A professional counselor specializing in sexual molestation is definitely something to consider, but NARTH or Evergreen? I wouldn’t wish that on my worst enemy, let alone a kid I loved.
I would recommend that those interested in learning more about this abusive movement to “repair” people who aren’t broken have a look at this article (both parts): http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_exod.htm
It is easy to get emotional. I will try to calm. What I wanted to do was point out some misconception, errors and unfair attacks on this website which were:
(1) People in mixed-orientation marriages aren’t attracted to their spouse.
(2) Success rates in mixed-orientation marriages are low (which they admitted they have NO statistics to back up)
(3) You wouldn’t want your kid to marry “someone like that” (which is a scare tactic)
I feel these accusations are not fair. These misconceptions are directed at people in mixed-orientation marriages, who by definition, are LGBT (otherwise it wouldn’t be a mixed-orientation marriage). One definition of homophobia is discrimination against LGBT people. I feel these misconceptions discriminate LGBT people in a mixed-orientation marriage, which by definition is homophobia. Let me know of any holes in my logic. Simply organizing for the advancement for LGBT people in same-sex relationships does not negate the misconceptions they are spreading about LGBT people in mixed-orientation marriages.
But these accusations were aimed at this organization, not at CowboyII or Fiona64. I asked that you not join them, but didn’t say that you had. I did say that the claim that the Church’s doctrine doesn’t jive with the “condition” of being gay was a lie. Maybe that was a strong word. Maybe I should have said misunderstanding. There are LGBT people whose conditions jive perfectly with the church. I saw no conflict with my condition of being gay and the church doctrine. Church doctrine might not jive with YOU, but please do not extend that to all of us.
I was not trying to give you a lecture on morality. I was trying to point out that the conflict you described had nothing to do with being gay, but could easily apply to a straight person who similarly didn’t want to be celibate until they found their soul mate. I know plenty of faithful members of the church, both gay and straight, who have found joy in celibacy because they have not found someone to marry. I am sorry you had such a hard time with celibacy, but understand some people have found joy in being celibate.
I am not really trying to attack anyone else’s lifestyle. I think that everyone should be free to chose whatever they want, and that whatever lifestyle they chose should be protected by the state.
However, I will not, and I repeat WILL NOT be silent when people attack my lifestyle. I demand the same respect for my lifestyle choices that I advocate for everyone else. Evergreen and NARTH have been God-sent. If you don’t want to go Evergreen, then don’t, but respect our choices to go.
And just for the record, I have never have had a problem with the church allowing me to associate with other gays. If that were the case, North Star would never be able to exist. I have several very close friends who are gay, both strong in the Church as well as living the gay lifestyle.
Joshua wrote:
(1) People in mixed-orientation marriages aren’t attracted to their spouse.
My comment: you yourself admitted that you had to force yourself to be attracted to your wife, that she is the only woman to whom you have ever been attracted — and you have been married for less than a year. I have no reason to doubt your testimony, Joshua, but I think it’s a little early in the game to make predictions about the future.
(2) Success rates in mixed-orientation marriages are low (which they admitted they have NO statistics to back up).
My comment: You are incorrect. I provided you with statistics about “mixed-orientation marriages” and their failure rate of approximately 80 percent, and your response was “that’s because they didn’t tell their spouses before.”
(3) You wouldn’t want your kid to marry “someone like that” (which is a scare tactic)
My comment: I would not want to marry someone who had to force themselves to be attracted to me, nor would I want my child to do so. It’s unhealthy and unfair, in my opinion. Your wife and I are not the same person; her life is hers, and she made her own choice. You claim that she is happy; as I have said repeatedly, it fascinates me that a number of men in these “mixed-orientation” marriages swear high and low that their wives are blissfully happy, but we never hear from the wives themselves. ::shrug:: I’ve asked repeatedly and been told “Oh, my wife doesn’t like to talk about it.” I guess I find that awfully convenient.
As for your comments about Evergreen and NARTH: they have been discredited by every reputable psychiatric and psychological organization. They cause far more harm than good. They *shame* people into hiding their sexual orientation. How can that be a good thing, Joshua? Because they gave you the tools to force yourself to be attracted to a woman? I’m sincere in asking this question. How can a “therapy” that has been debunked as pure quackery be a “godsend”? Help me to understand.
Your church’s document entitled “God Loveth His Children” cautions against gay church members spending time together socially. You may want to have a look at page 9 of the following link if you doubt me. Please don’t be disingenous, Joshua. It doesn’t reflect well on you.
http://www.lds.org/topics/pdf/GodLovethHisChildren_04824_000.pdf
Joshua wrote: I feel these misconceptions discriminate LGBT people in a mixed-orientation marriage, which by definition is homophobia.
I’m sorry; I neglected to respond to this.
You are stretching so hard here, Joshua, that I am afraid you will pull a muscle.
What this website is about is equality under the law. You show me where ANYONE has said that you do not have the right to marry a woman if you so desire. ANYWHERE. No one has said any such thing.
What we are talking about is the right of gay men and lesbians to marry their same-sex partners — a right which you voted against, I hasten to point out, while proclaiming how wonderful it is to be married to a woman.
I’m glad that you are happy. I’ve lost track of how many times I have said that. However, your logic is faulty in many ways, not the least of which is when you try to pretend that those of us fighting for marriage equality are homophobic because we don’t think people should have to live in the closet and marry only members of the opposite sex if that is not their primary attraction.
Fiona, I believe I have actually pulled quite a few mental muscles trying to wrap my mind around the illogical thinking of many anti-gay marriage proponents:-) I’ve really tried to see where they are coming from. I’ve taken my mind down every possible path to see if maybe it was I who is missing something. But alas, I still always arrive at the same clear-cut path which states, unless people’s actions have the potential to inflict harm on themselves or others, and if said people are tax paying and law abiding citizens, they should never be singled out for descriminatory practices based on the religious ideas of any group. To do so is clearly unconsitutional - and hopefully that’s what the pending law suit in California will finally reveal.
LOL at pulled mental muscles, Sheri! I’m pretty sure that my head has actually exploded.
I really do try to understand the arguments, but I always wind up coming down exactly the same place that you do.
As my favorite playwright, Oscar Fingal Wilde once wrote: “Selfishness does not lie in living as you wish; selfishness lies in demanding that others live as you wish.”
Have to agree with Sheri and Fiona64, this site is about allowing equal rights for all regardless of sexual orientation when it comes to marriage. People’s religious views should not be taken as a legal definition of marriage.
I think Laura has done an excellent job of allowing all viewpoints to be expressed on this site.
You know, at one time I sincerely believed that the Mormon Church asked nothing more of their gay and lesbian members than it did of other single members. That was until I started really thinking about it. There are so many activities for singles–wards, conferences, dances, etc. and a straight single member always has the hope of finding someone. On the other hand, a gay or lesbian does not have that hope and while they can go to the singles dances, they will not be dancing with someone who might be that special one, because same sex dancing would not be tolerated. Personally, as a Mormon and the mother of a gay Mormon, I’m glad that my son came to an understanding his homosexuality before doing the “right” thing and getting married and having children. I’ve read enough of those stories church publications and the heartbreak that happens.
My son and I will be going to see 8: The Mormon Proposition when it opens in SF on the 25th. He wanted to know how I remain active considering and I told him that I take what I feel is “good” and leave what “to me” is not right. And, that I know I’m not the only church member who thinks that civil marriage should be extended to all. This is not the only issue that I disagree with church policy. So, guess to some that means I am not a true Mormon.
Enough rambling.
We are all pulling our mental muscles trying to figure out the other side. I honestly don’t understand where you coming from. That is why I think communication is good. Common understanding is the goal of my coming here.
(1) People in mixed-orientation marriages aren’t attracted to their spouse.
Every couple has their story of how they fell in love. I said intimacy was forced, not my attraction. My attraction DEVELOPED, much like the attraction other people have. These are the words I said:
“Believe me, it was not forced. I wanted to do things with her that I wouldn’t allow myself to do before marriage and I had to restrain myself. I was very excited to jump into bed with her when I proposed. I did not force myself to be sexual attracted to her. It came.”
Maybe my sexual attraction developed out of my attraction to her as a person, but it doesn’t matter. I am currently very attracted to my wife and I don’t have to force it. This web site says we are not attracted to our spouse, but we are. That is a lie.
(2) Success rates in mixed-orientation marriages are low
You didn’t provide that statistic, I did. No one has provided me with any sources about the success rate. I was the only who provided any sources about that. The web site said “basically zero” which is not the same thing as 20%. That is the statistic that they made up. So maybe it is only 20% success rate, but compared to the divorce rate of other couples it really isn’t that bad.
(3) You wouldn’t want your kid to marry “someone like that”
I understand you wouldn’t want your kid to marry someone like me, but that still is a scare tactic. So you know what a scare tactic is? It is something that plays on the fears and prejudices of others. What is the difference between that and a racist saying “You wouldn’t want your daughter to marry a black guy”? Of course the racist can come with the same defense that you did, that they actually don’t want their daughter to marry a black guy. It is still a scare tactic.
You don’t have to understand why Evergreen and NARTH are God-sent to me. Just understand that many people find it to be beneficial. One of my constitutional rights is the right to assembly. Please respect that right.
Okay folks, this has been fun, but the conversation isn’t going forward and I’m tired of the johnny-one-note rut it’s gotten into.
Although the scripture implies that if you keep on knocking, you’ll eventually get the answers you want, it’s fairly clear that all the knocking that’s going on here is just generating noise.
There are lots of beautiful things in the world. Go out and enjoy them. We’ll talk more after the hearings are over. If you haven’t heard, there’s live blogging from the trial at prop8trialtracker.com and ongoing coverage at most of the major news outlets. There will be news conferences mid-day and at the end of the hearing, and if anything relevant to the intersection of Mormons and Marriage Equality comes up, we’ll be sure to talk about it in the next few days.
Go out and make a difference for good today.
And, specifically for Joshua, here is where some (many?) of us are coming from:
While you may feel personally attacked by what’s been written on this site, what is here really is not a personal attack on you. And while discussions may not match your experience, that doesn’t mean those discussions are lies any more than the statement, “American Mormons are Republicans,” is a lie. It’s a generalization. Which also means that there are exceptions to the generalization.
Everyone respects your right to assemble wherever and with whomever you wish and to say whatever you want. I believe everyone here has congratulated you on your blissful nuptials and we all - each and every one of us - are hoping that your marital joy and union continues throughout the eternities.
We are grateful you’ve been willing to come out and give us a minority report and shout to the world that you are a gay man attracted to a straight woman and that that relationship is blessing your lives, and to give voice to the exceptions to the generalizations we’ve noted elsewhere on the site.
You’ve found a shoe that fits you; a lid for your pot. Not everyone is the same size, and if you’re really interested in having a conversation rather than standing on a soap box and shouting, it would be polite to acknowledge that there’s not one solution for everyone and that there’s a good chance that your experience is an exceptional one.
If you want to understand the “other side” take a moment to walk in their shoes:
Your solution of heterosexual marriage (and mine) is still as valid today - and tomorrow, and yesterday, and 20 years from now - as it was on our wedding days. Our marriages are recognized wherever we live - I wasn’t married in California, yet California agrees that I’m married. You could move anywhere in the world and nobody would question your relationship with your spouse. Even if you wore a great big letter G or B on your shirt and your wife wore a great big S, you would still be recognized as a legally married couple - your orientation doesn’t matter to marital law because you are in a man/woman marriage.
Legally married same-sex couples do not have that security or those options today. Thousands of would-be same-sex couples do not have the opportunity to marry the person they love - the one they’ve “developed” an attraction for, the one they’re remaining virgins for. Wouldn’t it be nice if everyone could have the same opportunities to form secure, legal bonds with those they love? You may not think it’s religiously appropriate, but the last time I checked, the Constitution was not a religious text.
How would you feel if somebody went to court and, with the stroke of a pen, invalidated your marriage? You still love your spouse, you still live together and care for one another and have a family, but the court says, “Sorry, mixed-orientation marriages are invalid in the State of California.” You’re still free to go to the courthouse and sign a Domestic Partnership agreement and to pay an attorney to write up the wills, powers of attorney and real estate ownership documents you need to care for one another, though. And while you may love your in-laws, they are no longer in-laws and, as such, will not be among the closest family relatives named if your children are orphaned or if you are hospitalized. And if you move, be careful where you move to because you’ll have to figure out how to make your relationship valid in that jurisdiction as well (start the process all over again).
Nobody is taking away your marriage, Joshua, and nobody is denigrating it or preventing it. People - including members of a church many of us grew up in - are taking away, denigrating and preventing same-sex couples’ marriages. And we are speaking up for that minority at this site.
Thank you, Laura! You summed it up perfectly.
I am one for challenging assumptions: mine and others. That’s why I ask questions. If I want to understand, I’m going to inquire. As you point out, standing on a soapbox and shouting does not constitute dialogue; on my planet, we call that haranguing. ;->
Anyway, thanks again for your excellent summary.
Best,
Fiona
There is a difference between saying “American Mormons are Republican” and saying “American Mormons cannot be Democrat”. Likewise, there is a difference between saying “Gay people don’t marry people of the opposite sex” and saying “People cannot be happy in a mixed-orientation marriage.” This web site says mixed-orientation marriages have basically zero chance for success, which is a lie.
I have tried to say each pot has a different lid. By saying gay Mormons cannot be happy and faithful members, you are denying the lid to my pot.
You do not understand the problems associated with being in a mixed-orientation marriages. You do not understand the discrimination we face on a constant basis. You do not understand how this web site is causing us pain and heartache.
And putting words in my mouth and then filtering my posts so I can’t defend myself in is not very nice. But fortunately, you let the filter down so I can defend myself.
This is a great blog about overcoming prejudice against mixed-orientation couples.
I like this quote: “When They say that a homosexual man cannot ever be happy married to a woman, I am an annoying piece of evidence that They aren’t always right. So, They try to explain me away.”
It is often brought up that I have only been married a short time, so I don’t know anything about marriage. This man has been married for 33 years.
I think the key is to respect everyone and not diminish anyone’s relationship. True “marriage equality” supporters would never attack LGBT marriages like this web site does.
I forgot to include the link. Sorry.
http://www.springsofwater.com/blog/?p=386&cpage=1
Patting yourself on the back, Joshua? You are complimenting your own post.
I am sure that you have other things to do besides troll this website, Joshua. And yes, that is what you are doing. Perhaps you could take up stamp collecting or something instead.
I did not make myself clear. When I said “This is a great blog” I was refering to the one in the link. That was the one the quote was from.
His wife responded. She said:
Rex, While you were a “surprise package” so to speak when I married you, (I had no idea of your SSA), I did sense that you were a pretty “safe bet” because of your obvious love for the Savior. I had made up my mind long before you came along, that I wanted a man who was proven strong on that point, very intelligent, and had a sense of humor!
If I had it all to do again…I would still choose a man who had some kind of immense struggle, BUT had conviction and the wisdom to know that life holds many “unmet needs” and “unmet desires”. (I’m sure The Savior “needed” water, needed the pain to stop in his body and soul in Gethsemane and on Golgotha). Evidence of real LOVE is in putting aside or overriding our “unmet needs and impulses to quench burning desires” . It is that very ability of yours that evidences your love for The Savior and for me, therefore you give me no reason to fear your “riding off into the sunset” with anyone but me. : ) I deserve to feel loved, and I DO feel loved. LYF, Barbara
She feels loved, and they have been married for over 30 years.
Joshua, you stated: “You do not understand the problems associated
with being in a mixed-orientation marriages. You do not understand the discrimination we face on a constant basis. You do not understand how this web site is causing us pain and heartache.”
And, you are right, I do not. Perhaps you could enlighten us about those problems and discrimination.
If it makes you feel any better, I’ve had posts that did not make it past moderation.
You are still twisting “would you want a child of yours in this situation” (which is referring to having your child in a relationship where their spouse is not attracted to them) to “You wouldn’t want your kid to marry “someone like that” (which is an entirely different claim, and heck, the church used to teach that about interracial marriage).
Again, I, for one, would be most interested in learning about the problems of a mixed-orientation marriage and the discrimination that you and your wife experience. I believe that would add to the discussion way more than continuing to claim the “victim status” by claiming that this site is discriminatory against people in your situation.
Laura, your post was wonderful. You put everything into perspective. How anyone could read it and not understand why this site exists is beyond me.