Aug.14.2008
10:53 pm
by Laura
How Do You Respond in Church?
I’m wondering if there’s anyone who could share a story or suggestions for how to effectively respond to this issue when it comes up during church.
This website forum is great, but the most frustrating thing is to sit in Relief Society when a ward leader is reading an announcement about it and not know what to say.
There must be a way to respond that reflects the importance of voicing disagreement on this matter, but does so in a way that doesn’t alienate people or drive away the Spirit further.
Can someone complete this visualization for me?:
I’m sitting in Relief Society. The Second Counselor walks in with a piece of paper and is given the floor to make an announcement.
He says, “There is going to be an email list serv set up to organize flyering in support of Proposition 8. Sister X has been asked to take leadership of this effort in an unofficial capacity.”
I raise my hand. He calls on me and I say…
Filed in Help & Support - LDS, prop 8 |
I’ve got more to say, but don’t have time at the moment, but maybe you could start with, “Is she sending emails out to everyone or only to the people who are interested in receiving them?” or, “Since Sister X is working in an unofficial capacity, will we have a sign-up sheet for volunteers so she knows who is interested in helping?”
I promise to get back with a more complete response before Sunday evening, and hopefully sooner.
For Krys, who asked what good things might come of this effort:
The conversation itself - for those willing to seek and learn, information is blossoming everywhere and gay LDS people and their friends and families are coming out of the closet. We’re learning that they are just normal folk like the rest of us.
The activism - for people participating in the political process for the first time, this is a good experience. It is good to know how our political system operates, and it is good to have hands-on experience fighting for a political cause. Hopefully that experience translates into some critical thinking skills about other election issues (if we can sway someone’s vote by knocking on their door, perhaps others can too).
The education process - protectmarriage is arguing about teaching kindergarteners about gay marriage. Perhaps some non-parents will start paying attention to schools and education. Perhaps some less-involved parents will attend school board meetings. Parental involvement makes all the difference in scholastic success, more than almost any other factors.
The thinking process - as the church becomes more and more involved in this issue, and as some wards bang the drum loudly and insistently, some people, at least, are waking up in church and thinking about what it means to be a follower of Christ. As individuals study, pray and discuss this issue, they are sure to experience both spiritual and intellectual growth.
Why do you want to say something? To voice your opinion? To let other members know how you feel? To let leaders know how you feel? To start a dialogue? To find others who agree with you? To speak up on behalf of someone else? There are as many ways to speak up as there are reasons to speak up. One thing all those reasons have in common, though, is that you need to speak with love, honesty and humility and not be afraid or get upset when somebody feels the need to express their dissatisfaction with you or your words.
First, everyone- gay, straight, whatever - has feelings - non-rational, illogical feelings - and words as well as actions have the power to hurt or to mend those feelings. I won’t be able to help people understand me if I begin by hurting their feelings.
Along with that, I try to remember to criticize in private and compliment in public. If I have complaints about how things are handled in my ward, I bring those complaints to the leaders of my ward in a quiet, non-confrontational setting. If you have concerns about the general tone of requests for volunteers, or if you think political things are coming up too much in church meetings, it won’t hurt to try and speak with the bishop about your concerns. If you are hurting as a result of the rallying cry, tell him. Tell him why you are hurting and if it’s getting to be too hard to come to church, tell him that as well.
If my purpose in speaking up is just to make sure another point of view is heard, and perhaps to let others in the ward know how I feel, I might raise my hand and say something like, “I’ve been thinking/pondering/praying about this issue for weeks/months/years [since Prop 22], and I just can’t come to terms with [the way the church is involving itself/ asking for volunteers/ requesting donations to a political group/ etc.]. I don’t feel I can participate [in this fund drive / in this volunteer drive] at this point in time. Please take my name off the contact list. [If there are others who feel this way, I would love to talk with them about it.]
At some point, a well-meaning person is likely to bring up the idea that obedience is the first law of heaven and the prophet has told us what we should be doing. That if we go forward on faith, the kernel will grow inside us and we’ll gain a testimony of the righteousness of our endeavors. Depending on the circumstances, you could reply that you just don’t have enough of that kind of faith, that you need more time to sort out your thoughts/feelings, that you’ve already tried that whole process and the personal revelation you’ve received is that participating in this way is not for you at the moment.
You could also remind the person that the prophet has made a request, albeit a strong request, that we “do all we can to support” the cause. We all have different strengths and weaknesses, and perhaps all you can do to support the cause is show up in church and make sure nobody speaks ill of gays and lesbians. In doing that, you are complying with the leaders’ request that “The Church’s opposition to same-sex marriage neither constitutes nor condones any kind of hostility towards homosexual men and women. Protecting marriage between a man and a woman does not affect Church members’ Christian obligations of love, kindness and humanity toward all people.”
My personal experience has been that as I have stepped forward to speak truth from my heart and soul on this and other issues, that others have joined me, either publicly or privately. Some people can speak out and some people can’t. It is incumbent upon those of us who have the ability to voice our opinions to do so in a loving manner that we may show by our examples that the Church – and the Gospel – are for everyone.
To add to the answer above, just a bit, there is also this line in the church’s more recent statement on this matter, “As Church members decide their own appropriate level of involvement in protecting marriage between a man and a woman, they should approach this issue with respect for others, understanding, honesty, and civility.” It does reiterate that our level of involvement is a decision which we make– not a commandment.
Another way to respond in private might be to buy a copy of Carol Lynn Pearson’s book, “No More Goodbyes” for each of the members of your bishopric.
I also liked the response to Krys from LRC above. I hope that for some LDS folks, the debate around this proposition will make us more thoughtful and less judgmental of gays, and other people who don’t seem to fit in. It’s a small hope, but maybe it will come true.
If I were planning on saying something, I would prepare my statement in advance, practice it in advance, and keep it short. something like:
“I feel compelled to let you know know that I don’t agree with the Church’s stand on this issue. My experience with my gay brother and gay child have convinced me that the Church’s long time rhetoric against homosexuality is plain wrong. Also, by taking such a public stand on this ballot initiative, the church marginalizes not only its homosexual members, but also many, like me, who have come to a different opinion regarding this matter.”
Or simply,
“I have a gay son. I do not support the ballot initiative or the Church’s statement on marriage inasmuch as it excludes any hope for homosexual relationships.”
Then, if other comments follow, I would remain absolutely silent. I don’t want to get tongue tied or red faced or defensive or argumentative. I would simply state my point, and shut up. Saying anything is enough to get conversations going for a long time to come.
If someone says, in private conversation, that I am contradicting the prophet (I would not personally respond to a public accusation) I would say:
“I’m a 57-year-old woman and mother. The prophet does not share my experience and he does not speak for me personally. I claim the right to speak for myself, and my statement stands.”
Maybe you can quote the Primary hymn, ‘Jesus says love everyone. Treat them kindly too.’
In keeping with that you know you can’t participate.
I would say, “I’m glad you brought that up, I have a couple of questions that have been bothering me since the whole thing started. We know that gays currently have a right to marry here in CA. We also know that D&C 134:4 says that those who let their religious beliefs prompt them to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others are not in synch with God. Why are we disobeying scripture?
We squeeled like a pig under a gate when others used their religious opinions to infringe upon a weak and unpopular minority (us) by dictating what constitutes a legal marriage. Now we are doing the same thing to others. Why are we being 2 faced?
Jesus said to render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s and unto God, that which is God’s. The religious aspect of marriage is where the Church comes in. We set standards for temple worthiness and other qualifications. The secular/legal aspect of marriage belongs to Caesar. These include tax laws, inheritance laws, child custody laws, alimony, etc…. Why is the Church ignoring Christ’s words?
I’ve asked bishops and stake presidents and have yet to receive an answer and none have. Do you?
I am very happy to have found you, Sisters. Today in Sacrament meeting a member of the High Council was quite specific that we are directed to support Proposition 8. It is an issue of obedience and we are required to obey. Like Abraham being willing to kill his son and pioneers obeying plural marriage, we must obey, whether we agree with it socially and politically or not.
In Relief Society, the bishop’s wife gave the lesson and stated that this is an issue that she has struggled with, because she was afraid she would lose friends. One sister cried, because her grandson, whose father is gay, was with her in church. She affirmed her agreement with the directive, but said she would have to talk with him about it.
After sacrament, one sister remarked to me, Weren’t those wonderful talks? I declared myself: that I could not obey this directive and support Proposition 8, that it would violate my conscience. She advised me to talk to the bishop, which I am willing to do. I’ve only been a member for seven years, and have not run into such a clear conflict before. Is this something that could require me to leave the church?
My husband is out of town on business, but I explained the situation over the phone. He said we can discuss our options in future.
When the First Presidency letter was first read several weeks ago, my husband and I drove home with another couple and agreed that such statements have an ugly whiff of intolerance, so I knew we were not alone in our feelings. The vehemence with which the views were expressed this morning suggested to me that the bishop has heard more resistance from members of our ward.
Thank you for creating a place to share opinions.
Christine, we’re glad you’re here.
Our ward had a stake presidency member speaking “on assignment of the stake president and Elder Ballard” (who is overseeing the Proposition 8 efforts).
I personally believe that there is room for you in the church, just as there is room for me, and I do not support the current efforts on Proposition 8. The First Presidency letter was a request to do all that we can do to support the campaign. The Church followed up with its document about the Divine Institution of Marriage.
That document reminds church members, “The Church’s opposition to same-sex marriage neither constitutes nor condones any kind of hostility towards homosexual men and women. Protecting marriage between a man and a woman does not affect Church members’ Christian obligations of love, kindness and humanity toward all people.
“As Church members decide their own appropriate level of involvement in protecting marriage between a man and a woman, they should approach this issue with respect for others, understanding, honesty, and civility.”
Perhaps all some of us can do in this campaign effort is to treat others (both those supporting the amendment and those affected by the amendment) with respect, understanding, honesty and civility.
After much prayer and consideration, I feel at peace with my Lord and Savior by following this path of love. Surely his grace is sufficient to cover me, and he accepts my best efforts as much as he accepts the widow’s mite.
Well, I was really nervous about saying it, but here’s what I said when the situation came up. And I got a very very positive response for the very very ‘follow the leader’ (yet thoughtful) person in charge of a portion of the ward’s prop 8 activities.
I wanted to make it longer, but didn’t want to lose my audience.
“I’m sorry I won’t be able to help with the prop 8 activities. After a lot of thinking and praying and crying, I am going to vote no. I think it is best for the children involved that they should have parents who are joined together in a marriage, even if it is not one we would consider celestial or doctrinally correct.”
Thanks for the #2 post above. I’ve heard (read, more) a lot of the “separate sheep from the goats” (always difficult for me because I can’t remember whether sheep or goats are bad).
For me, I think it’s a real test of whether I can be true to what I believe are moral principles while still being charitable to people on both sides. So maybe another good that comes of it is my own personal ability to stand up for what I think is right.
When she heard that the official announcement was being read in church, my daughter grappled with how to voice her opposition in church without being confrontational. She decided to go to the fabric store and buy a roll of 3/4 inch rainbow ribbon and a bunch of safety pins. Before that Sunday, she and her sister cut the ribbon into 7″ pieces, looped them and attached the pins. They made about 100 of these. She and her husband each wore a ribbon to church that day. She said that she noticed that several people looked at her and smiled that day. Since then, she wears the ribbon, not only to church to else where and always carries extras to give away when people acknowledge it. I also wear one and have given them away. I think that this simple act has allowed others at church to know where she stands without her having to be confrontational or having to publicly say something (which is difficult for her). It also visually lets those in the LGBT community and their family members know that she supports them. Obviously, no one in her ward is asking her or her husband to walk their neighborhoods.
I’ve found that doing something, no matter how small, is much better than being silent.
By the way, having been through all this 8 years ago, I am certainly available to support anyone who is struggling with this in church. I’m in Ventura County. If you need to talk through this with someone, the administrators of the website have my contact information. It was a life changing experience for me, and I so appreciated those who individuals who helped me sort through my feelings and options back then.
In 2006, on the very last day that my husband went to church, a clipboard was passed around in Priesthood to collect email and contact information related to the “Tennessee Marriage Protection Amendment”, which I’m embarrassed to say, passed with 81% in favor.
Not knowing what to say, or how to say it, my husband just passed the clipboard on without pausing. Several men behind and beside him noticed this, and when the coordinator collecting the information made a big deal about not having an email for EVERY person in attendance while giving him the stink-eye, DH just turned to the people around him and said something to the effect of “I just don’t feel the same way about this as you all do”.
He didn’t scream it from the pulpit, but he made a little respectful stand that didn’t offend or embarrass anyone and hopefully gave five or six people the opportunity to rethink what they were doing. I was really proud of him.
Thank you all for your comments. I am a young BYU grad living in the San Francisco Bay Area and this issue has caused me many tears. It is good to know I am not alone in my pain and concern.
Christine,
Your friend who told you to speak to your Bishop in all likelihood did not mean to insinuate you are a sinner or need to repent, but rather that the Bishop may be able to provide some comfort and guidance. My Bishop has been extremely vocal, dedicating whole 3-hour blocks and after church meetings, in support of Prop 8. However, I went in privately to speak to him regarding my opposition to Prop. 8 and it was the best thing I could have done. He reassured me that the Church would not appropriate my free agency and that I could decline to do anything I didn’t feel comfortable doing without backlash, questions, or even any kind of record-keeping. There were no threats or warnings- just love. I would recommend you go in to see your Bishop, even if perhaps he’s not so understanding, so at least he knows where you stand and can be more sensitive to your concerns.
As to how to respond in Church, I agree with what has been said about approaching the issue as sensitively to other people’s feelings as possible. If we are trying to widen the circles of our love and understanding, condemning our fellow brothers and sisters as bigots is probably not the way to go. I am still working on how to respond, but in the meantime, I am focusing on expressing my love and support for our gay Mormon family members and friends. I try to support Mormons whenever they say anything I agree with. For instance, whenever someone suggests that we “hate the sin, love the sinner” (a refrain I find mildly offensive), I jump in with full support, and pull the speaker into agreement with my support, of the “love” side. Sometimes I share anecdotes of how I have seen Mormons fail to love our gay (Mormon or non-Mormon) neighbors, and how we can do better at “circling the wagons” around our gay loved ones. I have also, sensitively I hope, refused to campaign for the Proposition whenever asked to do so. Hopefully, this will let my Mormon friends know where I stand without making them defensive (and so less likely to listen).
The Church is true. This too will pass.
Hi there. I’ve been thinking about this since I read your original post. I’ve been trying to imagine what would 1) fit in with the tempo of church meetings and 2) be something that people could hear you say rather than making them close their ears (and minds) before they can think about what you’re actually saying. I’m not sure this accomplishes those two goals, but for what it’s worth, here you go:
Brother Y, thank you for bringing this to the attention of our Relief Society. We now know who will be contacting us if we support Proposition 8. For those of us who oppose Proposition 8, there’s a great website called MormonsForMarriage.Org. In following the advice of the prophet to study in our minds and pray for guidance about all the things we hear it’s important that we know where to go depending on how our conscience (the Light of Christ) leads us. Thank you!
Another (shorter) option is to just say:
Brother Y, I’m not sure if everyone knows this but I’m a point of contact for sisters who oppose Proposition 8. They can contact me at anytime to get on a similar distribution list.
Then direct them one by one to this site.
The benefits of mentioning the name of the website in Relief Society are:
1) people will hear it so if they’re afraid to contact you they’ll know where to look (let’s face it, fighting peer pressure can be scary, and as Mormons we’re not that good at it!) and
2) they’ll hear that’s it MORMONS for marriage - which might give them courage that it’s a place where other Mormons can be found!
Don’t know if either would work. But one of the biggest challenge that we progressive Mormons face is that we all think we’re the only one in the congregation! It’s very powerful just to know that you’re not alone. And to be reminded that we’re not bad members for being progressive. In fact, being progressive is the way the Spirit is leading us to fulfill Jesus’ summary of the law and the gospel - the commandments to love our neighbors as ourselves AND love God with all our heart, might, mind and strength.
Good luck to us all!
I believe one of the greatest strengths of the Lord’s Church is the unity of His people. I think how He prayed for us, saying: “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us.” But, I also believe this great strength and this prayer is for unity, *not* uniformity.
Personally, I’m not sure exactly what to think about all of this — exactly how much I agree or disagree. The homosexual marriage issue hasn’t really touched me personally (yet?). I tend to agree with the application of D&C 134:4 I’ve read in several posts — I also believe that “The Family: A Proclamation to the World” is scripture. Lots to think about, and I’m ok with not having all the answers right now.
I certainly can say I am most impressed with the tone of the postings and their thoughtful, hopeful, Christ-like approach. As I read here, I feel the same unity-of-the-saints that I often feel in my own Ward — that this forum is in some way helping to accomplish the goals found in Ephesian 4:11-15. Thank you, admins and posters, for your goodness.
Admin3: Thanks for making this into its own post! We’ve generated so many ideas already.
Captain Moroni: Thanks for the suggestion; You are so right on. I love that your approach simply presents gospel truths and lets them speak for themselves. Word.
Mark Oliver: Excellent! A brief and to-the-point response that gives people in the room another option, without getting scrambled up in religious arguments. Thanks!
This site is very helpful in that it provides open and honest insight as well as critical thinking. Most of what I have read is very positive. Are there any other sites that deal with other “issues” in the church in a positive manner. The other sites I have been exposed to tend to be more negative. A discussion could be: do I need to accept every calling? This could be a post on another site. I love everybody’s feedback so far. I think Heavenly Father wants us to think rather than being robots.
My wife and I are investigators (although I have a long history of involvement with Mormon issues) who had baptismal dates set (now postponed). We attended a Gospel Essentials class the Sunday the June letter was read. The teacher chose to do a lesson on families to support the letter. We listened to others in the class for quite a while, and then spoke up. We said our perspectives were different–that my wife’s mother and her female partner had been together for 31 years; and that my cousin, who was best man at our wedding, had been with his male partner for 15 years. We said our experience is they are good, loving people who do not deserve to be targeted for exclusion, and that Prop. 8 felt mean-spirited to us. We said we were concerned that a church which stresses free agency is trying to press it’s morality upon secular society and to pressure members into taking a particular political action. We stressed that these were our experiences and views and didn’t expect others to share them, but felt we needed to feel free to express ourselves. The rest of the class became a discussion (which remained fairly good-spirited) on some of the points we raised.
AnonymousActive (#20),
I have found a TERRIFIC forum for discussions of broad LDS topics among a group of progressive people. Are you on Facebook? If so, look into the group called “The LDS Left”. It’s a very warm, positive, loving community, and questions like yours would be sincerely discussed.
I also really appreciate everyone’s suggestions here. I tend to be pretty bombastic when I express my views, so it’s good to hear about more sensitive ways to let your voice be heard.
How long will it take the church as a whole to be more open-minded about this issue? I refuse to participate in the Prop 8 efforts. I also wonder if there are more people like me in my ward who silently agree with me.
Are there any open-minded bishops or stake leaders out there? I think it’s great this website is available. We need to express our views in some forum. One day I am hoping that things will change for the better. All I can do in the meantime is to use my own logic and to follow the spirit.
[...] While there are many solid (although misguided) arguments to be made against opposing same-sex marriage, there is one that I have heard repeatedly and shows profound ignorance regarding the purpose and mission of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Two examples of the same line of thought will suffice to demonstrate the argument: But what is really surprising to me is that the California branches of the church would have forgotten how extremely alienating their activism on this issue was for certain members of the church, and for certain segments of the larger California population. (via) Also, by taking such a public stand on this ballot initiative, the church marginalizes not only its homosexual members, but also many, like me, who have come to a different opinion regarding this matter. (via) [...]
I was asked to say the closing prayer today in Relief Society. Public prayer is a great way to let your views be known. After all, who can argue with a prayer? I didn’t speak specifically about the prop, but I prayed that we can all be more tolerant and less judgmental. I also prayed that we can be more understanding of those who are different from us. I prayed that we can reach out and help those around us whether nonmormon or mormon. There may be others in the room who may find comfort in a prayer like this. You never know whose life you might influence and you may also give someone the strength to stay in the church.
I would suggest that we can all make a difference with a heartfelt prayer.
I have just joined the LDS church and I am torn on how to act in my own ward. I am located in Arizona and my own ward is discussing proposition 102 to change the Arizona constitution to define marriage as between a man and a woman. I have been blessed with many gay friends in my life and a gay sister. It pains me to know that my own sister would not be welcome in my church. That even if she accepted the gospel and started on that straight and plain path God has laid out for her, that my own church would ask her to forgo all relationships in her life. I torn because I don’t know how to work within my own ward to bring about the change needed for gay people and gay marriage to be accepted by the church. I am glad there is a place I can express these concerns openly.
Ken, welcome aboard. Read through the posts and you’ll get some good ideas about getting people to open up and think. Check out what I said regarding D&C 134:4 and ask you bishop how we are NOT inviolation of it.
Ben, you bring up an interesting point. While I feel for your sister, I think the problem you’re facing IS a doctrinal one. Permitting gay marriage supposedly is merely a civil/legal issue disconnected from religion. So, I think according to those views, the Church would not allow your sister to become baptized if she was living in a homosexual relationship (married or not), because it’s considered sinful. While that’s harsh to hear, it’s the “privilege” if you like, of a Church to lay out what they consider to be God’s will and what’s “right” or “wrong”. I don’t think you’d be able to influence the Church to change something doctrinal, and personally, I don’t think we should. That should be God’s job alone, if it is truly his church.
However, I think you can try and pray and find out for yourself what God feels is right or wrong regarding homosexuality, homosexual relations etc. Other than that, though I can’t speak for the whole Church, I think gay people ARE accepted in the Church. Granted, there are always judgmental jerks who think they are better than others because they don’t struggle with this or that problem, but…their day of judgement will come. In my home ward, my brother is loved and supported by everyone. Him being gay hasn’t even been an issue. I’ve found many other members to be the same way. A lot of members are loving and supporting of people no matter who they are or what they do. And then, some members are jerks. Well, we have to learn to also be tolerant towards those who clearly lack compassion and tolerance.
Anyway, I don’t know what others think here about your question. I don’t know whether the attitude is that gay marriage should be allowed, AND be recognized by the church as relationship that’s not sinful before God (and therefore acceptable in church) or whether it’s merely a civil rights issue. I don’t know…
Fran - I don’t know whether the attitude is that gay marriage should be allowed, AND be recognized by the church as relationship that’s not sinful before God (and therefore acceptable in church) or whether it’s merely a civil rights issue. I don’t know…
CM - Since it deals ONLY with government and government provided rights and responsibilities and does not affect the relationship between the Church and gays, this is clearly just a civil rights issue.
Well, I figured that right now this supposedly is just about civil rights. I just read comments that suggest that people not only want the right for marriage to be available to homosexuals, but they also want the Church to accept this the way they would accept any other marriage (for example, if you’re married and straight and want to join the church, you’d have no problem while I think if you were married and gay you wouldn’t be able to join until you end the relationship…).
Just to support my point Captain Moroni, what Clark Pingree, for example suggests in his little video clip on the home page, very much suggests that marriage for homosexuals should be an alternative that he’d want the church to embrace doctrinally - by allowing homosexuals who live in homosexual relationships to remain members of the Church. I think that clearly suggests a desire for change in doctrine in the Church rather just asking that the Church allow for all people to have the same civil rights, and leave Church decisions to the church.
Fran and Captain Moroni (and others willing to jump in on either side) -
While your conversation is very interesting, it’s beginning to stray from the topic of this thread, namely, “How do you speak out in church?” Please stay on topic - thanks!
Fran, I believe in maximizing freedom. The church should stay out of the civil rights issues of Caesar and Caesar should not force the church to accept gays. There is no way that the gospel can accomodate gays being actively involved in homosexuality. Sorry.
In keeping with the Moderator’s request, I suggest that everyone copy the following statements onto small slips of paper and put them under the windshield wiper of every car in the church parking lot. This will embolden those who oppose the church’s position and spark discussions in Elder’s Quorum and other orgs. maybe we can get people to actually think.
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Promoting Proposition 8 Is Contrary To The Scriptures
1. LDS scripture (D&C 134:4) says we can’t use our religious opinions to justify infringing upon the rights and liberties of others. (see also 1 Cor. 10:29).
2. Gays in CA currently have the right and/or liberty to marry.
3. We are attempting to infringe upon this right/liberty in contradiction to scripture, because our religious opinions regarding marriage and homosexuality prompted the prophet to oppose this.
4. However, the prophets have all stated that their own words are subserviant to the scriptures and that we are to ignore anyone’s teachings, including their own if those teachings contradict scripture.
5. Only by sustaining prophetic statements by following the procedure (Common Consent of the 12 and of the entire Church) we’ve always used for sustaining a revelation, can the scriptures be superseded. That has not been done nor even discussed as far as anyone can tell. No mention of any revelation has been heard of as is required to sustain statements controverting scripture. (Abandoning Plural Marriage and giving the Priesthood to all worthy men both came via revelation, sustained by the 12, then approved by the Church. Doing this superseded previous established doctrine)
6. Since D&C 134:4 is superior to contradicting statements made by ANYONE, even the prophets, according to the prophets, and since it hasn’t been overturned nor any efforts to do so via historic guidelines of Common Consent have been discussed, the validity of 134:4 stands.
7. Since it stands, our efforts to infringe upon the rights and/or liberties of gays are wrong.
My House is a house of order. All things are to be done in order.
Vote NO on Proposition 8
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As far as speaking out in church, I wish all of you people were in my same ward or stake!! I think the church is afraid of people who express their opinions if they differ from the position of church leaders. Once again, this contradicts the scriptures.
While I appreciate the desire to be polite and sensitive when expressing one’s views in Church (that’s obviously important), I get the feeling that most of the suggestions given so far are not strong enough for most cases. Maybe it’s because I was always taught that if something is wrong in Church you call it as it is, but I would simply say: “No, this is wrong and unchristlike. Period.” Not a fight or an argument, but just simply tell the truth without having to tip-toe around it. Church meetings, especially those like Priesthood and Relief Society, are made for discussion and debate, so let’s have it! It’s discouraging that one would have to hedge one’s answers and opinions behind “this is not for me” or “I’ll have to silently oppose this” or “maybe this is all I can do and this is my private struggle” or other such similarly subdued expressions of dissent from the groupthink.
I love reading the historical records of the early Church precisely because you can see this sort of debate that is so absent these days; people are afraid to simply vocally disagree in meetings. There is nothing wrong with that. Of course there’s a fear of overzealous reprisal but, apart from some very infamous (and notorious) cases, you will most likely not be “disciplined” for a thought crime and/or simply saying that you think what Brother or Sister So-and-So said is wrong and they’re wrong for asking me to support their views. It’s even okay to say that this is a policy with which you disagree, although I’ll grant that in that case it’s more careful ground.
But that’s what this is, a (misguided, bigoted) policy, plain and simple. There is no consistent doctrinal basis behind this, and that can be very easily explained. My point is that people should never be afraid to simply say these things. What is the person sitting next to you in Relief Society going to do to you? Disagree? Heaven forbid! But the more people feel free to calmly, clearly, even nonchalantly call things as they are, the better it will be. All it takes is for others to hear just one person speak about it in these terms to realize that it’s okay for them to do so as well.
The important thing to remember is that the people who are very much for things like Proposition 8 feel just as strongly and they will never, ever apologize for their opinion. Why should you? When “the other side” (for lack of a better term, I’m sorry that I can’t think of anything better) has to silently put up with the rhetoric, there is no conversation. Just bullying and passive-aggressive coercion. I wish we could always remember that there is nothing wrong with conversation in Church, especially the kind that involves a difference of opinion. Speak up, speak clearly, speak calmly. It works.
I stumbled upon a YouTube clip of a talk that Thomas S. Monson gave back in April of 2007. Here’s a transcript of a story he told in that talk:
“Several years ago we had a young paperboy who didn’t always deliver the paper in the manner intended. Instead of getting the paper on the porch, he sometimes accidentally threw it into the bushes or even close to the street. Some on his paper route decided to start a petition of complaint. One day a delegation came to our home and asked my wife, Frances, to sign the petition. She declined, saying, “Why, he’s just a little boy, and the papers are so heavy for him. I would never be critical of him, for he tries his best.” The petition, however, was signed by many of the others on the paper route and sent to the boy’s supervisors.
Not many days afterward, I came home from work and found Frances in tears. When she was finally able to talk, she told me that she had just learned that the body of the little paperboy had been found in his garage, where he had taken his own life. Apparently the criticism heaped upon him had been too much for him to bear. How grateful we were that we had not joined in that criticism. What a vivid lesson this has always been regarding the importance of being nonjudgmental and treating everyone with kindness.”
MAD,
I love your post. Thank you. Thank you. All of these posts have given me support for my thoughts on this issue. Speaking out in church, in essence, is like doing missionary work for our cause. Just think how many people you may influence by a simple comment!!
One time, the bishop came and was telling us about Prop 8. He referred to gay marriage as “immoral” and a “sin”. Not directly, but he would say things like this:
“We should have a moral marriage, which God says is between a man and women”
“We should not be immoral and disobey god’s eternal plan.”
And they called homosexuallity “same-gender attraction”. The bishop said if wanted to say anything during his speech, we could. So me and my sibling stated our point of view, all the other youth too sensitive from the topic, and didn’t talk (accept one or two times).
31Fran on 09 Sep 2008 at 9:04 am wrote -
Just to support my point Captain Moroni, what Clark Pingree, for example suggests in his little video clip on the home page, very much suggests that marriage for homosexuals should be an alternative that he’d want the church to embrace doctrinally - by allowing homosexuals who live in homosexual relationships to remain members of the Church. I think that clearly suggests a desire for change in doctrine in the Church rather just asking that the Church allow for all people to have the same civil rights, and leave Church decisions to the church.
CM - Sure, there are many gays that love the Church and want to be able to share temple blessings with their loved ones. Therre is no way gays can force the Church to do anything. Even if some lawsuit is successful, the people of the state/nation would pass a constitutional amendment in the blink of an eye to rectify the issue. Nothing short of a direct revelation will cause the church to change it’s doctrine.
I am a gay Mormon living in California, and I am very grateful to the kind, loving LDS people who oppose Proposition 8. This is the type of Christ-like love I can learn something from.
Thank you for developing this site. I now have a great resource to give to friends and family who may want to study both sides of the issue before making a decision.
Only 5 more Sundays till the election. I never know what closed-minded comment I may hear in church and am glad it will be almost over.
Here is a question: What if you are a bishop or a stake president and you oppose this issue? How do you gracefully discuss this issue when you clearly disagree?
First of all, I have to give a shout-out to Anon Youth, #38. It can be really hard to stand up for your beliefs in that kind of a setting, and I think its FANTASTIC that you and your siblings had the strength to do so. As a Young Women’s President, I hope my girls can have that kind of courage.
Second, I wanted to hear some of your opinions on my dilemma.
I have a button on my backpack that says “Straight, but not Narrow”. I’m really tempted to move it to the bag I take to church, just as a subtle way of showing my position. But I don’t want to start a fight at church, or offend people. I’m YW President, and I don’t want people running to the bishop concerned about me indoctrinating their children with the liberal mantra of Satan.
What do you think? Let sleeping dogs lie, or speak out at the risk of alienating some? I really don’t think church is the place for politics, but our leaders have sorta made it a political forum. Well, they have in Cali, and I live on the East Coast.
Go for it Natalie. Just consider it a conversation piece. The curious may ask and you can state your case in a calm and loving manner.
Natalie,
As a leader who works with youth, I think you do have a responsibility to send a not so subtle message to your gay youth…and believe me, if you have worked with more than 10 young people, who have almost certainly worked with someone who is LGBTQ. It never ceases to amaze me how many of the LDS kids that I knew or taught over the years, are LGBTQ. Because I’m involved in gay rights, this information now gets back to me. Most people never know. The person has just “gone inactive”.
If a parent or church leader challenges you, tell them that too many gay Mormon youth have committed suicide, and that the button is a way for a LGBTQ youth to identify you as “safe”. Knowing that not everyone finds you “unacceptable” can make the difference between life and death for a young person.
My daughter tells the story of an LDS friend who came “out” to her and then said “Now, can I go talk to your Mom?”
Natalie,
Remember those “sleeping dogs” are our faithful brothers and sisters in the Gospel. We might not agree with them, but they are the ones following the prophet and we are choosing to do otherwise. It is unwise for those of us who support marriage equality to assume that all of those who do not are somehow close-minded bigots. I think we’d be surprised how many are well-informed and also conflicted, but their beliefs have led them to support tradition. We should always remain peaceful.
I sent the following to the Bishop in my ward:
Dear Bishop Lainhart,
I am the middle child of a family of five boys. We were raised in the LDS church by my father David L Kendall and mother Elizabeth A. Kendall. This is not purely a sexuality issue for me. While my brothers were out playing cowboys and Indians, hunting, playing war and doing the things boys do, I was playing house, having tea parties and playing with the girls. I am not aware of a single gay man whose story about his childhood is different than mine in this respect. We were different from the day we were born and not merely choosing a sexual orientation later in life.
The only reason I am able to write this letter is the fact that my mother was dying of cancer when I was dealing with my sexuality, a very difficult period in my life, and she needed me. I most surely would have chose to leave this planet and not deal with the guilt, pain and self degradation bestowed upon me by the LDS church and organized religion. I made it through this difficult period in my life, only after coming to terms with my sexuality through hundreds of hours or prayer, tears and anger.
The fact that the church insists on its claim that I chose to be gay prompted me to investigate the church and Christianity in general. My research has allowed me to reexamine my beliefs and seek the truth without the outside influence of man. The following is my testimony of life, faith and belief. The truth has set me free.
I believe that no man or religion has spoken directly to the Creator.
I believe that God is neither man nor woman but a universal intelligence that governs nature in all aspects, including any afterlife or plan of infinite existence.
I believe the universal intelligence, the Creator, does not render to any creation different levels of status or respect. The creator does not hold man in higher esteem than the butterfly.
I believe that human intelligence is the Creators expression in the same way other life forms are managed through instinct and necessity.
I believe that all life and spiritual beings will have the opportunity to grow, learn and progress infinitely for the purpose of joy and not status.
I believe there is a reason for all sexual instincts as the Creators plan of balancing nature. This includes humanity and all life forms.
I believe that heaven and hell are both creations of man and not the Creator.
I believe the truth is all around us and that man, blinded by artificial faith, has become separated from it.
I received your letter, rendered to me by mail on October 4, 2008, stating the consequences of my request to cancel the effects of my baptism, confirmation and priesthood ordination of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints. My decision to have these records cancelled has not changed. I hope that the church will change its direction on standing against the Creators decision for alternative sexuality. Pain, suffering and suicide are direct consequences of humanity not accepting those beings that the Creator puts on the earth for the reason of balancing nature. I hope you will read this to your members during regular church meetings.
Natalie,
I say go for it! If you are still feeling conflicted, I would also suggest using a car magnet. I like it when I see other Obama bumper stickers in the parking lot so I made it a point to get one too. Yes, the church believes in unity but that doesn’t mean we need to give up our individual preferences and opinions.
Prop 8 is an interesting paradox that contrasts the Church’s Mosaic-oriented worldview with the beatitudes. Looking through the lens of the beatitudes, I see that prop 8 requires that I:
1. Judge gays.
2. Use force (of law) against gays.
3. Persecute gays (the new polygamists).
There is no wrong answer, just different ways of looking at the issue. I would not be wrong for voting NO, just as the Mosaic crowd is not wrong for voting YES.
For those that might have been wondering…. I decided to put an Obama Pride sticker on my bag, which has a little rainbow on it. It’s more subtle, so won’t draw a lot of attention and dispute, but I hope it will certainly be noticed by anyone looking for allies.
No comments so far.
Boy, I can’t wait for Nov. 5th.
I’m with you Natalie. Only 21 days till November 5. Being in California, I want to avoid all ward social activities until that anticipated date.
While serving my mission, my district leader was the kind of person I aspired to be. He always thought of others first, he was a true leader, his prayers inspired others, and he was fully committed to be a humble servant. While serving, I suspected he was gay. Hanging out with him after our missions, I knew he was.
He tried so hard to reconcile his love of God and his belief in the church with who he was. After almost two years, he finally came out to me. I did all that I could to reassure him that it did not matter — but I almost never heard from him again.
I pray that he was able to reconcile the conflict he felt, to move beyond the rejection he felt from so many — and I pray that he found acceptance and peace in his own life with a caring partner.
As for me — knowing this elder led to my own awakening. My inability to reconcile that the church and so many of the members of my own ward would reject him based on his sexuality eventually forced me, as a young adult, to question all that I had been taught to believe as a child and teenager. I still work every day to “choose the right” — but my perception of what is right and wrong is no longer shaped by a church that would use their money, members, and influence to undermine the human and civil rights of my fellow brothers and sisters.
And as much as I was warned that leaving would diminish my own happiness and jeopardize my eternal salvation — I have never felt so good about who I am and what I stand for. If loving and accepting others leads to damnation — I have no problem with that.
My hope is that many of us can stay active in the church. Though this issue is troubling, we can support one another as like-minded individuals. I hope the church turns around someday and that many in the church will recognize the prop 8 efforts a huge mistake.
In the meantime, hang in there. The election is almost over.
Such a wonderful question. One I have struggled with since the church decided it needed to be involved in California politics. The next time this issue comes up, I will not be silent. What I will say certainly depends on in what context Proposition 8 is mentioned.
So glad to know that I am not the only Mormon struggling with this. One thing will be different when we go to church this Sunday, We shall drive my car instead of my husband’s as mine now proudly displays a “No on 8″ bumper sticker.
Sheryl (a lifelong Mormon and mother of a gay son)
You go girl!!! If I was at your church, we could park our cars together with our matching bumper stickers.
I’m a second counselor in a bishopric. When this all started I went right to a member of the stake presidency and voiced my concerns as well as of course my bishop. No one since has asked me to participate in any prop 8 activities. When the church held the recent fireside, I was asked to hold down the fort at mutual while all the other adults went to the stake center. I feel I have been accommodated and treated with respect. The bishop keeps sending disaffected members to share with me their concerns. I love the Lord and his church. Most importantly I strive to love others as I love myself.
@Sunchild:
If you are single would you like to date?????? : ) But seriously free thinking Mormons need to hook up any ideas???
Sunchild,
I am very impressed with your determination and fortitude to express your views to your bishop and stake presidency. I wish I had a member of my bishopric who felt like you did. I also want to piggyback on what NotMollyMormon (56) said; where can free-thinking single mormons meet? If not for dating, but perhaps for friendship.
To those interested in finding a social network for free-thinking Mormons. While I have yet to find such a thing in “real life”, so to speak, I have found a truly wonderful online group. It might be worth your while to sign onto facebook and check out the group called, “The LDS Left.” It is so, so, so nice to have fellowship with like-minded individuals.
Here’s the link: http://www.new.facebook.com/home.php#/group.php?gid=2210558813
I am also aware of a group called “Mormons for Equality and Social Justice”. I am not officially a part of it, but have looked through their website, and think it offers a lot of potential for fellowshipping.
In today’s Salt Lake Tribune, Elder L. Whitney Clayton, the Seventy in charge of the church’s Proposition 8 efforts in California, was quoted:
—–Latter-day Saints are free to disagree with their church on the issue without facing any sanction, said L. Whitney Clayton of the LDS Quorum of the Seventy. “We love them and bear them no ill will.”—–
I think statements in church that thank Elder Whitney for his compassion and understanding that faithful members of the church may hold contrary opinions on this issue might be a useful response.
You all are in my prayers. Only one more Sunday to go.
With love and peace,
Machelle
http://www.GaysAndTheGospel.org has just released a new web video highlighting some of the LDS teachings of Jesus Christ that can help our LDS friends, family and neighbors Vote NO on Prop 8, California’s marriage amendment. It can be viewed at http://www.GaysAndTheGospel.org/video
The site also has a downloadable, print at home pamphlet “11 Scriptural Reasons Latter-day Saints Should Oppose California’s Prop 8″ http://www.GaysAndTheGospel/resources It can be handed out, mailed or used for neighborhood canvassing before the election. We hope the video, pamphlet and site will be a valuable resource to help promote understanding, unity, truth, equality, love and freedom for our Gay and Lesbian neighbors, their marriages and families. The invitation is to simply follow the Savior’s teachings in this nationally divisive debate.
Please pass this on to all who can benefit from it. The content can also be helpful in marriage campaigns in Arizona, Florida etc.
Thanks!
“… it was strictly contrary to the commands of God that there should be a law which should bring men on to unequal grounds.” (Book of Mormon, Alma 30:7)